Pass Rush? Why all the Spags Love?

[reesebobby 5,663]

1 hour ago, FANATIC said:

Thats why its a 2 year window. After that its a Greenbay/Rogers situation.

Rogers is kind of the exception to the rule.  That is, if you believe Mahomes is elite.  The Brady, Roethlisberger, Manning, Brees, Elway, Montana, windows are open until they retire.  

[Holmes4six! 974]

i worry about this transition and unloading ford and houston. mind you even with those guys are d was terrible. i think part of this transition is to get the veterans out so the culture can change. we can’t do anything about it so let’s see veach work his magic.  at least he is trying to give spags the tools and a fresh locker defensive locker room that needs a attitude adjustment  

[Thegoatee 1,786]

If you draft smart, Mahomes will keep KC a contender for 15+ years. Assuming he doesn’t slip up. The window can always be open.

[sith13 1,746]

5 hours ago, Mloe68 said:

3 year, not 2.  We’ve got Patrick under club control until 2022. 

More importantly the new CBA will coming up at the end of his 5th year option. I wouldn't be surprised if they ignore the extension until the CBA as that might benefit Mahomes as well. 

[robgar 1,046]

It will... if i was a player i wouldnt be signing anything more than a 2 to 3 year deal right now. 

next year is the final year of the cba... so if you signed a 10 million dollar contract, next year you could get 12.5 million, the third year 13.5 million (10% pay raise max in years after the cba expires), also the amount of money that can be buried into guarantees, changes in the final year.  you may see guys signing five year  6 year contracts right now, but in esssence they will be 3 year deals.. this is why i am so interested in the details of the HB contract. 

as it almost has to be essentially a sugar coated 2 year deal.. perhaps even a sugar coated 1 year deal.  i.e. signing bonus year 1 spread over 3, of 10 million or so.. making his base salary something like 4 million, or a 7 million cap hit, with roster bonus's the next 2 years. I dont really know how people can say we overpaid for someone, when we really dont know what we are paying yet.  

[Docbarnabee 225]

Well, Ford is gone.  Not quite sure I like tike getting a second round pick in 2020,  but I think we should be ok this year.  

[soonerborn77 276]

10 hours ago, FANATIC said:

Look I hope these moves are all excellent. My point is why add an expensive apple to a rotten bunch. You still get mold. Plus no pass rush offsets this move. Its early we shall hope for the best. Note: I enjoy watching Dee Ford play and know he will be missed. 

If last year at this time I told you that we would get a second round pick for Dee Ford you would call me crazy, don't let one year fool you.  Look he may have turned the corner but I don't think it was worth the $ for us to find out.  We now have 6 draft picks in the first two rounds the next two years, that's plenty of firepower to improve the defense.

[liquidfriend 1,151]

I think Ford proved a lot and personally no way in heck would I have gave him a big money deal knowing what I know, but on the surface it's not that the investment isn't warranted.

He did enough for a long term deal, but he just did not fit in Kansas City anymore.  There never were any plans to keep one move one.  

Andy wanted a 4 man DL all along but wasn't going to touch a good Defense to do it.  The Defense finally collapsed, werthers got left at the bus station and now Andy is building what he wants and it's a Jim Johnson kind of Defense.

A stiff like Justin Houston and a one-dimensional Dee Ford weren't what Daly and Spagnuolo were looking for.  2018 was the end of an era and they seem to have decided it can't get much worse (and it really can't) and it was time to just rip the band-aid off and do it the right way.

Hanging onto yesterday would have done nothing more than brought complaints over Andy Reid never learning and how everyone is overpaid.

[PAChiefsFan79 136]

18 hours ago, FANATIC said:

Agree. Good info. So at this stage KC will need to draft a pass rush if they trade Ford?

Not necessarily. Spags will have players stunting, twisting, delayed blitzes, etc... Those things are schematic ways to get pressure regardless of talent level. Chris Jones will be a monster in the 4-3. He will be the primary pass rusher, but that's not to say they won't rush others.

 

In Sutton's scheme pressure was a result of individual talent. His scheme wasn't built on stunts, twists, delayed blitzes, etc... if a man didn't win his battle then Sutton's scheme broke down.

 

I think finding DBs and Dline is more important then looking for a specific pass rusher.

[FANATIC 852]

1 minute ago, PAChiefsFan79 said:

Not necessarily. Spags will have players stunting, twisting, delayed blitzes, etc... Those things are schematic ways to get pressure regardless of talent level. Chris Jones will be a monster in the 4-3. He will be the primary pass rusher, but that's not to say they won't rush others.

 

In Sutton's scheme pressure was a result of individual talent. His scheme wasn't built on stunts, twists, delayed blitzes, etc... if a man didn't win his battle then Sutton's scheme broke down.

 

I think finding DBs and Dline is more important then looking for a specific pass rusher.

Maybe correct. I sure remember KC with no pressure. It was not fun. I think you need both pressure and good Dbs just to be an average defense.

[Handswarmer 645]

Secondary is more important, thats why HB was signed.

Cover and you can get to the QB

LBers are next. They need some new ones

[kkuenn 3,613]

8 minutes ago, Handswarmer said:

Secondary is more important, thats why HB was signed.

Cover and you can get to the QB

LBers are next. They need some new ones

LB or CB. I can see them going after vet in these areas to solidify the roster and also allow depth/development from the draft 

[the Warparty 69]

11 minutes ago, Handswarmer said:

Secondary is more important, thats why HB was signed.

Cover and you can get to the QB

LBers are next. They need some new ones

yep, Chiefs need some coverage for at least the first 2.5 secs.

[Mloe68 1,521]

3 hours ago, liquidfriend said:

I think Ford proved a lot and personally no way in heck would I have gave him a big money deal knowing what I know, but on the surface it's not that the investment isn't warranted.

He did enough for a long term deal, but he just did not fit in Kansas City anymore.  There never were any plans to keep one move one.  

Andy wanted a 4 man DL all along but wasn't going to touch a good Defense to do it.  The Defense finally collapsed, werthers got left at the bus station and now Andy is building what he wants and it's a Jim Johnson kind of Defense.

A stiff like Justin Houston and a one-dimensional Dee Ford weren't what Daly and Spagnuolo were looking for.  2018 was the end of an era and they seem to have decided it can't get much worse (and it really can't) and it was time to just rip the band-aid off and do it the right way.

Hanging onto yesterday would have done nothing more than brought complaints over Andy Reid never learning and how everyone is overpaid.

Great post. What we are doing won’t make sense to some or certainly the average fan  who doesn’t pay attention to schemes or CAP room or game film. And much like drafting Mahomes and trading away Alex, this is not the usual SOP for this franchise.  But it’s the right way. 

With the CAP room he’s created and plenty of early draft picks Brett Veach has the tools he needs to get this done  

GREAT position to be in. Also will really expose him if he screws it up because there’s nowhere to hide and not anyone to blame after this (except EB situation which is still tricky) I like guys who want that pressure!

[Mloe68 1,521]

18 minutes ago, Handswarmer said:

Secondary is more important, thats why HB was signed.

Cover and you can get to the QB

LBers are next. They need some new ones

I don’t know. I’ve always thought in modern game where WRs have advantage over corners, that getting to QB is priority one. Chiefs defense last year was an outlier of sorts because we had a lot of sacks, but very few against good offenses.  

Our defense was predictable and lacked versatility or creativity despite three good pass rushers.  I’m not sure I’d go as far as agree with your premise or not. But it’s interesting.  

[Handswarmer 645]

7 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

I don’t know. I’ve always thought in modern game where WRs have advantage over corners, that getting to QB is priority one. Chiefs defense last year was an outlier of sorts because we had a lot of sacks, but very few against good offenses.  

Our defense was predictable and lacked versatility or creativity despite three good pass rushers.  I’m not sure I’d go as far as agree with your premise or not. But it’s interesting.  

INTERESTING READ HERE....

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2018/which-defenses-depended-non-pressure-sacks-2017

[West 6,714]

Agree with MLoe,

Veach has created the room he needed to dramatically make over the worst defense in the NFL.  I can not make an argument for Dee Ford because he did nothing against the Patriots in the biggest game of his NFL career.  Couple this with a new defensive scheme and he was a goner.  For what it is worth, Berry has not played up to the $$ of his contract and I would try to deal him as well. 

While the NFL is all about "pressure on the QB", the Chiefs required  a radical makeover on Defense and Veach has put himself in the crosshairs if he nuts this up.

The dude has balls for sure.

w

[PAChiefsFan79 136]

1 hour ago, FANATIC said:

Maybe correct. I sure remember KC with no pressure. It was not fun. I think you need both pressure and good Dbs just to be an average defense.

Oh I remember those days...ugh! I'm not saying they don't need pressure.  I'm saying pressure won't be based on individual talent alone. 

 

Think more along the lines of Ravens and Steelers how they would have defensive linemen sliding behind another DLman in a totally different gap then what was directly across from him. OLman colliding, blocking wrong assignment,  etc...

 

Schematic pressure versus winning one on one.

[Handswarmer 645]

Football Outsiders has a different opinion

Kansas City Chiefs

Biggest Hole: Cornerback

Can we just highlight the entire defense and leave it at that? While they improved a bit towards the end of the year, the Chiefs ended up 26th in defensive DVOA and dead last in rush defense. They could stand to have seven or eight new starters on defense, with improvements needed at every level. They need a run-stuffing defensive tackle, a pass-rushing threat on the defensive line, a pair of interior linebackers who can tackle, and an Earl Thomas-like safety, perhaps even Thomas himself. Even with all that, though, I'd start remaking the defense with help at corner.

Kendall Fuller is a fine player, but Steven Nelson and Orlando Scandrick are free agents. Fuller had a 47 percent success rate, ranking 32nd out of 85 qualified corners, but you run out of talent quickly after him. Charvarius Ward, who would presumably start if the Chiefs didn't add any bodies, had a terrible 35 percent success rate -- he would have finished second to last in success rate, had he played enough snaps to qualify. Perhaps Tremon Smith can make the jump from return specialist to effective cornerback, but I wouldn't pin my hopes on it. They need a starter across from Fuller if Nelson leaves; even if they somehow scrape out the cap room to re-sign him, they still need additional depth.

Major Free Agents: Spencer Ware, RB; Anthony Sherman, FB; Kelvin Benjamin, WR; Mitch Morse, C; Allen Bailey, DE; Steven Nelson, CB

The Chiefs have just over $10 million in cap space as of this writing, which ranks 29th in the league. That means they're not going to be able to re-sign their entire free agent class. Nelson alone is likely to get $9 million or $10 million a year on the free market; that would be very difficult for Kansas City to absorb without some cap manipulation.

Fortunately, the Chiefs don't have a lot of must-sign free agents, now that they've used the franchise tag on Dee Ford. With the shift to a 4-3 defense, the Chiefs are reportedly still listening to trade offers for Ford or Justin Houston, which would free up an additional $14 million to $15 million against the cap. That would, in turn, give them room to try to re-sign Nelson, as well as the useful (if oft-injured) Mitch Morse.

Ed. Note: Between this article being written and going live, the Chiefs elected to release Justin Houston outright. They are still reportedly looking to trade Ford as of time of writing.

[sith13 1,746]

21 hours ago, FANATIC said:

Maybe correct. I sure remember KC with no pressure. It was not fun. I think you need both pressure and good Dbs just to be an average defense.

I think Spags will go for a team perspective in pass rush. We had two solid guys from the edge and one in the middle but once the opposition focused on eliminating those we were left with no pass rush. I'm expecting the DBs charging in from time to time as well as the LBs. The days of just having couple guys from the edge seem to be over in the NFL with all the investment in OTs. 

[xen 1,010,220]

On 3/13/2019 at 11:34 AM, Handswarmer said:

Football Outsiders has a different opinion

Kansas City Chiefs

Biggest Hole: Cornerback

Can we just highlight the entire defense and leave it at that? While they improved a bit towards the end of the year, the Chiefs ended up 26th in defensive DVOA and dead last in rush defense. They could stand to have seven or eight new starters on defense, with improvements needed at every level. They need a run-stuffing defensive tackle, a pass-rushing threat on the defensive line, a pair of interior linebackers who can tackle, and an Earl Thomas-like safety, perhaps even Thomas himself. Even with all that, though, I'd start remaking the defense with help at corner.

Kendall Fuller is a fine player, but Steven Nelson and Orlando Scandrick are free agents. Fuller had a 47 percent success rate, ranking 32nd out of 85 qualified corners, but you run out of talent quickly after him. Charvarius Ward, who would presumably start if the Chiefs didn't add any bodies, had a terrible 35 percent success rate -- he would have finished second to last in success rate, had he played enough snaps to qualify. Perhaps Tremon Smith can make the jump from return specialist to effective cornerback, but I wouldn't pin my hopes on it. They need a starter across from Fuller if Nelson leaves; even if they somehow scrape out the cap room to re-sign him, they still need additional depth.

Major Free Agents: Spencer Ware, RB; Anthony Sherman, FB; Kelvin Benjamin, WR; Mitch Morse, C; Allen Bailey, DE; Steven Nelson, CB

The Chiefs have just over $10 million in cap space as of this writing, which ranks 29th in the league. That means they're not going to be able to re-sign their entire free agent class. Nelson alone is likely to get $9 million or $10 million a year on the free market; that would be very difficult for Kansas City to absorb without some cap manipulation.

Fortunately, the Chiefs don't have a lot of must-sign free agents, now that they've used the franchise tag on Dee Ford. With the shift to a 4-3 defense, the Chiefs are reportedly still listening to trade offers for Ford or Justin Houston, which would free up an additional $14 million to $15 million against the cap. That would, in turn, give them room to try to re-sign Nelson, as well as the useful (if oft-injured) Mitch Morse.

Ed. Note: Between this article being written and going live, the Chiefs elected to release Justin Houston outright. They are still reportedly looking to trade Ford as of time of writing.

So much wrong in this article, starting with they're looking at it from a 34 perspective.  But yeah the premise that our defense sucked is a "duh" moment.

[jetlord 10,210]

This whole thread boils down a just a few issues.  First, the Chiefs defense kept them out of the SB and from being an elite team last season.  Second, the Chiefs were in a bind cap wise and couldn't just buy a better defense.  So they could keep most of their veteran players, avoid any major FA signings, put a band aid on the worse areas ad hope to hit a home run in the draft.  OR  They could blow up the present defense, dump a lot of cap cost,  Bring in some good FAs in areas of critical need, revise the scheme to take advantage of the talent remaining, and hope to hit a home run in the draft.  Veach, and probably Reid and Spags, chose the second which would indicate they are thinking about several years down the road while still hoping for good results in the near future.  I vote for that approach. (just in case they call and ask)

[FANATIC 852]

9 minutes ago, jetlord said:

This whole thread boils down a just a few issues.  First, the Chiefs defense kept them out of the SB and from being an elite team last season.  Second, the Chiefs were in a bind cap wise and couldn't just buy a better defense.  So they could keep most of their veteran players, avoid any major FA signings, put a band aid on the worse areas ad hope to hit a home run in the draft.  OR  They could blow up the present defense, dump a lot of cap cost,  Bring in some good FAs in areas of critical need, revise the scheme to take advantage of the talent remaining, and hope to hit a home run in the draft.  Veach, and probably Reid and Spags, chose the second which would indicate they are thinking about several years down the road while still hoping for good results in the near future.  I vote for that approach. (just in case they call and ask)

agree good take