Some rumors out there Chiefs trying to trade you know who

[PhataLerror 370]

3 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

So you’re using 6.29 receptions per game to define Julio Jones territory but I shouldn’t use stats to rest my argument. Got it.  

Your argument was stillborn. It starts out failing to meet the eye test or football IQ, and then it fails on a numerical comparison at the simplest level.

If, in fact, the Chiefs were looking at the trade market for Hill, perhaps it was because they believe the market for Hill grossly exceeds his actual value. In this case, my argument is in agreement with league football minds, and I didn't have to throw out a number to make it credible.

 

[PhataLerror 370]

8 minutes ago, PAChiefsFan79 said:

There are true #1 WRs and then there are WRs in today's NFL with a unique talent that become a #1 WR out of many different WR positions. Tyreek Hill is a #1 WR. He's just not your traditional #1 WR. 

 

Don't believe me, go watch NFL.COM videos that talk about Tyreek, today's WRs and what today's offenses are doing. Plenty of former players that talk about Hill and players like him.

As I've already stated, I was arguing "WR1" on its classical definition. If we're going to redefine the term, it should be understood that the parameters that my argument is based on have fundamentally changed.

I will add that it took years for players like Jones, Brown, Beckham, and Green to earn the upgrade from "Prototypical WR1 Talent" to "WR1". Hill has a couple seasons' worth of highlight film, and folks here want to call him a "WR1". You can find former players saying good things about anyone, but Hill's utilization is not as diverse as that of true WR1's. If Hill can become highly competent in more than a very narrow scope of the route tree, he would earn the distinction of "WR1" rather than freakishly-athletic WR2.

[reesebobby 5,663]

2 minutes ago, PhataLerror said:

Your argument was stillborn. It starts out failing to meet the eye test or football IQ, and then it fails on a numerical comparison at the simplest level.

If, in fact, the Chiefs were looking at the trade market for Hill, perhaps it was because they believe the market for Hill grossly exceeds his actual value. In this case, my argument is in agreement with league football minds, and I didn't have to throw out a number to make it credible.

 

So you put two hypothetical ideas together and in your mind made that means league football minds agree with you?  Wow.  Do you think that's why we traded Smith?  Because they thought his market value grossly exceeded his actual value?  

[PAChiefsFan79 136]

1 minute ago, PhataLerror said:

As I've already stated, I was arguing "WR1" on its classical definition. If we're going to redefine the term, it should be understood that the parameters that my argument is based on have fundamentally changed.

I will add that it took years for players like Jones, Brown, Beckham, and Green to earn the upgrade from "Prototypical WR1 Talent" to "WR1". Hill has a couple seasons' worth of highlight film, and folks here want to call him a "WR1". You can find former players saying good things about anyone, but Hill's utilization is not as diverse as that of true WR1's. If Hill can become highly competent in more than a very narrow scope of the route tree, he would earn the distinction of "WR1" rather than freakishly-athletic WR2.

Okay...lol. freakishly athletic WR2.  Lmao... I can't even.... lol...

 

https://fantasyfootballers.org/wr-wide-receiver-nfl-stats/

 

Top 5 in stats... lmao but he's just a #2 WR

[CranjisMcbasketball 781]

Hill is a beast, highly durable, fast, catches contested passes way better than one could expect from his size, runs all routes just not deep passes.

there is just no on field reason to not want him on the team. 

Generally i would argue wide receivers are less valuable with a stud qb like mahomes, but i think tyreek is the exception.

off the field is obviously a different story 

[Mloe68 1,521]

7 hours ago, PhataLerror said:

In a vacuum, you'd be correct. Would you deny that targets to a given receiver will be inversely proportional to the degree of defensive resources assigned to that receiver? Generally, a quarterback shouldn't be forcing balls to a receiver that is effectively bracketed. Of course, if your best remaining target after Kelce and Hill is Albert Wilson, you're going to be forcing a lot of throws to Kelce and Hill. Thus I indicated that Hill became much more of a threat once he was playing across from Sammy Watkins, who often commands double-teams.

You again just don't have your facts right. Watkins not only missed almost half the season, but was rarely ever double teamed here. I don't know where you come up with some of this stuff. Also the NFLs best WRs are arguably Julio Jones and De Andre Hopkins. Not coincidentally they are 1-2 in targets and 1-2 in contested catches. Force fed the ball often amid little separation. 

Albert Wilson is emblematic of your confusion here. His stats in Kansas City were below his actual ability because he was hindered by an average QB. And hence why the Dolphins gave him a 24 million dollar contract to a guy who'd never been over 554 yards or scored more than 3 TDs before. They saw what Wilson was truly capable of in one start with a high level QB and it paid off for them before his injury as he was on pace to crush career highs at over 900 yards and 9 TDs. I'd love to have him back here! 

[liquidfriend 1,151]

Lmao you guys shouldn't even waste the effort.  Just tell him that Colin Kaepernick is better than Alex and move along.

[Palangi 788]

12 minutes ago, liquidfriend said:

Lmao you guys shouldn't even waste the effort.  Just tell him that Colin Kaepernick is better than Alex and move along.

No doubt this dude is hard headed.  Just running in circles now

[Mloe68 1,521]

2 hours ago, liquidfriend said:

Lmao you guys shouldn't even waste the effort.  Just tell him that Colin Kaepernick is better than Alex and move along.

I think you are right. Feels like a discussion on WRs but probably more lame intent to try and explain how Mahomes the “sandlotter who can’t throw from the pocket” threw for 23 more TDs than his guy ever has in a season. 

[Calichief 3,024]

Did anyone learn....?

[Balto 723]

I’d argue that Hill is close to a new standard that should be ranked higher than a WR1 like Julio/Brown/Beckham/Green.  Hill is like a Patriots type receiver but elite on all levels.  Yes his speed kills and hands are much much better than average and what people give him credit for BUT the NFL is changing and more staffs are going more towards the college style offense in which you have QBs with more mobility.  More shotgun.  More time before defenders can touch the QB.  Hill is the new WR1 style of NFL receiver that is best at extending plays and being available when his QB scrambles.

Julio/Brown/Beckham/Green are the last of the old breed......Hill has brought in the rise of the evolutionary change that all NFL positions have or will go through and WR is now in that category!

[Calichief 3,024]

There is NO ONE like Tyreek in the NFL at this moment.

[liquidfriend 1,151]

3 hours ago, Calichief said:

Did anyone learn....?

They never do

[Mloe68 1,521]

4 hours ago, Calichief said:

Did anyone learn....?

I consider this a great reminder that we now have an elite QB who can overcome adversity and even get us past losing an elite player like Hill if that did unfortunately happen. Prior to MVPat we’d have quickly reverted back to a QB throwing for 16-17 TDs per season which won’t work trying to rebuild entire core defense on the fly.  

Even srill we can only hope this story doesn’t end like Kareem’s. We made it work last year without him for sure, but clearly weren’t as good. 

[PhataLerror 370]

16 hours ago, reesebobby said:

So you put two hypothetical ideas together and in your mind made that means league football minds agree with you?  Wow.  Do you think that's why we traded Smith?  Because they thought his market value grossly exceeded his actual value?  

No, I think they acquiesced to the fans. And I think that's going to ultimately going to push the Chiefs farther away from the Super Bowl.

[PhataLerror 370]

7 hours ago, Balto said:

I’d argue that Hill is close to a new standard that should be ranked higher than a WR1 like Julio/Brown/Beckham/Green.  Hill is like a Patriots type receiver but elite on all levels.  Yes his speed kills and hands are much much better than average and what people give him credit for BUT the NFL is changing and more staffs are going more towards the college style offense in which you have QBs with more mobility.  More shotgun.  More time before defenders can touch the QB.  Hill is the new WR1 style of NFL receiver that is best at extending plays and being available when his QB scrambles.

Julio/Brown/Beckham/Green are the last of the old breed......Hill has brought in the rise of the evolutionary change that all NFL positions have or will go through and WR is now in that category!

What people here are not acknowledging is that this is the same thing that was being argued in Washington and San Francisco in 2012, and in Buffalo when Tyrod Taylor was a thing. You can see where Baltimore is toying with the idea of an athletic 'new breed' quarterback.

Eventually defenses catch up. You can beat speed with smart football, because the defense will always ultimately have the angle.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

6 minutes ago, PhataLerror said:

No, I think they acquiesced to the fans. And I think that's going to ultimately going to push the Chiefs farther away from the Super Bowl.

And you reached this conclusion based on the fact that in our first year without him as our starter we got closer to the Superbowl than we ever did with him. Very sound logic.

[reesebobby 5,663]

16 minutes ago, PhataLerror said:

No, I think they acquiesced to the fans. And I think that's going to ultimately going to push the Chiefs farther away from the Super Bowl.

Farther away than an overtime loss in the AFC Championship Game?

[reesebobby 5,663]

9 minutes ago, PhataLerror said:

What people here are not acknowledging is that this is the same thing that was being argued in Washington and San Francisco in 2012, and in Buffalo when Tyrod Taylor was a thing. You can see where Baltimore is toying with the idea of an athletic 'new breed' quarterback.

Eventually defenses catch up. You can beat speed with smart football, because the defense will always ultimately have the angle.

When Tyrod Taylor or Colin Kaepernick throw for 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns then you may compare the two with Mahomes.  Mahomes had the same amount of carries as Alex Smith did the year prior.  He is much closer to Favre or Rodgers than the two you mentioned.  I think you are bordering on racism with your analysis that he's an athletic guy without smarts.  He's actually very smart.  His presnap reads are superior to Smith, he recognizes pressure better than Smith, and makes better decisions under pressure than Smith.  He gets sacked less on more attempts.  There is literally nothing that Smith does that is better than Mahomes.  Not a single thing.  
 

[Mloe68 1,521]

39 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

And you reached this conclusion based on the fact that in our first year without him as our starter we got closer to the Superbowl than we ever did with him. Very sound logic.

Yep. It’s all about January. We went from losing at home in the wild card game to a mediocre Titans team that fired its coach. To getting to the AFC Championship game for the first time since we had our last elite level QB in Joe Montana. And rallying against the best coach and QB of this era with epic clutch 4th quarter QB play just like Joe gave us in 1994. There’s absolutely no coincidence. Only this time our QB is 23, not 36  

Get this defense into the top 15 and multiple Lombardi’s are coming. Amid a lot of change in core players and questions about Tyreeks future, I’m actually thankful this guy returned to remind us all of that. 

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

8 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

Yep. It’s all about January. We went from losing at home in the wild card game to a mediocre Titans team that fired its coach. To getting to the AFC Championship game for the first time since we had our last elite level QB in Joe Montana. And rallying against them with epic clutch 4th quarter WB play just like Joe gave us in 1994. There’s absolutely no coincidence. Only this time our QB is 23, not 36  

Get this defense into the top 15 and multiple Lombardi’s are coming. 

Where you think the defense sits as of today Mikey?

[Lamardirts 2,121]

37 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

When Tyrod Taylor or Colin Kaepernick throw for 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns then you may compare the two with Mahomes.  Mahomes had the same amount of carries as Alex Smith did the year prior.  He is much closer to Favre or Rodgers than the two you mentioned.  I think you are bordering on racism with your analysis that he's an athletic guy without smarts.  He's actually very smart.  His presnap reads are superior to Smith, he recognizes pressure better than Smith, and makes better decisions under pressure than Smith.  He gets sacked less on more attempts.  There is literally nothing that Smith does that is better than Mahomes.  Not a single thing.  
 

He doesn't take a sack like Smith!

[Mloe68 1,521]

34 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

Where you think the defense sits as of today Mikey?

I don’t think we can reasonably believe we’ve improved from a pure talent standpoint. But we have improved our overall situation in terms of creating platform (cap room and draft picks) for Veach to do that. And scheme/coaching staff upgrades fit right into that. Just a huge draft for us and a huge developmental offseason for last years picks who should be better fit in Spags scheme   This defense looks like its going to be REALLY young!

Your thoughts?

 

[kkuenn 3,613]

52 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

When Tyrod Taylor or Colin Kaepernick throw for 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns then you may compare the two with Mahomes.  Mahomes had the same amount of carries as Alex Smith did the year prior.  He is much closer to Favre or Rodgers than the two you mentioned.  I think you are bordering on racism with your analysis that he's an athletic guy without smarts.  He's actually very smart.  His presnap reads are superior to Smith, he recognizes pressure better than Smith, and makes better decisions under pressure than Smith.  He gets sacked less on more attempts.  There is literally nothing that Smith does that is better than Mahomes.  Not a single thing.  
 

He has yet to really learn the check down pass. I would say he will get much better taking what the defense is giving him for 5 yard completions to set up 2nd or 3rd and short

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

16 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

I don’t think we can reasonably think we’ve improved from a pure talent standpoint. But we have improved our overall situation in terms of creating platform (cap room and draft picks) for Veach to do that. And scheme/coaching staff upgrades fit right into that. Just a huge draft for us and a huge developmental offseason for last years picks who should be better fit in Spags scheme   Your thoughts?

 

I agree 100%. I think they have put together a hell of a coaching staff and that HAS to be factored into this. I also think they've flat gotten sick of not being able to stop the run and have prioritized that, knowing they will have to sacrifice some pass rush.

After watching some film last night, I think that Damien Wilson may be a nice under the radar signing. Having House working with him, Rags, and Hitch, and DOD is going to be huge.

Im kind of expecting them to use their first and one of their seconds this year, and possible even one of their seconds next year to move up in round 1 and go get the explosive pass rusher they lack. And we pretty much know they are gonna go corner in round 2 even if they only end up with 1 pick in the round. Its a solid class and round 2 could be a sweet spot to find a cost controlled starter to groom under Breeland. 

I like the plan of attack, and I think a lot of fans are having trouble seeing the fact Veach is playing the long game here.  Getting a starting pass rusher and corner on rookie contracts has got to be the goal in this draft and is paramount to getting us back into good cap shape long term.  To finally fix Dorseys cap mess.

Finally I think people are sleeping on Watts. The kid was damn good in college and is a hell of a good athlete. I think he is factoring into their plans more than people realize, and may be our starter at FS.