liquidfriend 1,151 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, PhataLerror said: My "bias" is that I have little regard for "quarterbacks" that have limited effectiveness from the pocket. I never had a lot of respect for Steve Young, who is as white as they come. The whole race thing with "not-white quarterbacks" is a red herring that deliberately skirts comprehensive discussion of the long-term disadvantages of playing outside the pocket. Stop waffling dude and just drop the shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: My "bias" is that I have little regard for "quarterbacks" that have limited effectiveness from the pocket. I never had a lot of respect for Steve Young, who is as white as they come. The whole race thing with "not-white quarterbacks" is a red herring that deliberately skirts comprehensive discussion of the long-term disadvantages of playing outside the pocket. I assume you're referring to Mahomes not being effective from the pocket? He literally led the league in passer rating from the pocket: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1086613246612774912 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkuenn 3,614 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 22 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: Double-check the snap counts. Miller and up on this list played 50% or more on snap counts. Look at their o line too playing 100%. The only starters not getting above 50% on defense was Talib and Harris their CBs. Seems they played the first half of the game where they were behind until we put in our 2rd string qb to fumble and int away the lead. All this with our 2nd stringers in other than Schwartz at RT. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201712310den.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handswarmer 645 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, kkuenn said: inlybatarters wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 27 minutes ago, kkuenn said: What supporting cast did he have that Smith did not have? Smith had a healthy run game in Hunt all year. He had Hill, Kelce etc. We had Watkins for Mahomes but also lost starting guards, the center and Watkins for half the year oh and dont forget Hunt too being kicked off the team. All this and he still put up better numbers, sacked less and showed how he made those better around him. See with Smith all had to be perfect around him to do well. With Mahomes it can fall apart to injuries and he still made it happen. All this in his 1st year as a starter. No Watkins, no Conley, no Zach Fulton. And Robinson as a WR2. Hunt was interchangeable. I drafted him in fantasy leagues because Smith was the quarterback, and runningbacks have had a lot of success with Smith (and stopped having success when they no longer played with Smith). I traded him away in fantasy leagues because Smith was no longer the quarterback. I have no interest in acquiring Hunt as a Cleveland Brown. The weak link on Mahomes' line was never worse than the weak link on Smith's line. There was an immense chasm between the squad that played with Mahomes in the post-season and the squad that played with Smith in the post-season. In 2015, the year in which Smith might have had his best supporting cast, Charles blew out his knee, and then Jeremy Maclin suffered a high-ankle sprain in the first round of the playoffs. Mahomes has enjoyed nice things not in any way analogous to what Smith has been surrounded by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkuenn 3,614 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, Handswarmer said: wow Only starters. Dont hate the fat thumbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, dksww said: I assume you're referring to Mahomes not being effective from the pocket? He literally led the league in passer rating from the pocket: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1086613246612774912 Yes. And as is the case with so many numbers, in this case an algorithm that especially rewards shot plays, Mahomes scored highly. When an algorithm favors a certain style of play that doesn't correlate directly to winning football, I don't pay it much mind. There are plenty of plays where Mahomes struggled from the pocket, and you saw it in the first half against the Patriots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calichief 3,025 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, dksww said: I assume you're referring to Mahomes not being effective from the pocket? He literally led the league in passer rating from the pocket: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1086613246612774912 🤜 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 13 minutes ago, dksww said: Not true at all. We'll see. Only just over five months of non-football to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 49 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: Against a team that was already evaluating players for the 2018 season, and benched a number of starters to give dozens of snaps to undrafted rookie free agents in a meaningless game. He won an NFL MVP in his first season starting, what more do you want? He was one possession or a Dee Ford offsides away from taking this team to the Super Bowl for the first time in 50 years, all with carrying the worst defense in Chiefs' history. Again, what more do you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkuenn 3,614 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 14 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: No Watkins, no Conley, no Zach Fulton. And Robinson as a WR2. Hunt was interchangeable. I drafted him in fantasy leagues because Smith was the quarterback, and runningbacks have had a lot of success with Smith (and stopped having success when they no longer played with Smith). I traded him away in fantasy leagues because Smith was no longer the quarterback. I have no interest in acquiring Hunt as a Cleveland Brown. The weak link on Mahomes' line was never worse than the weak link on Smith's line. There was an immense chasm between the squad that played with Mahomes in the post-season and the squad that played with Smith in the post-season. In 2015, the year in which Smith might have had his best supporting cast, Charles blew out his knee, and then Jeremy Maclin suffered a high-ankle sprain in the first round of the playoffs. Mahomes has enjoyed nice things not in any way analogous to what Smith has been surrounded by. Watkins for half a year. Conley proved he was not any good so much we let him walk, Zach Fulton really? We had a 3rd string rb start in the playoff game and did very well. There has been rbs that do well without Smith. Hell even an aged Peterson continued to do well without Smith. Frank Gore had 1000 yards plus in 2005 and 2006 when Smith was injured. Then in 2013 to 2017 he had three 1000 plus yards and the other two seasons he had 967 and 961. Tell me again how he did not do do well without Smith? By the way, Fulton played in 100% of snap counts in the Titans loss. https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/08/chiefs-snap-counts-from-wild-card-round-playoff-loss/amp/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Kareem Hunt was literally on his way to 2,000 total yards and 20+ touchdowns in 2018 before getting cut lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkuenn 3,614 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: We'll see. Only just over five months of non-football to go. And you back to watching Redskins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reesebobby 5,664 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 5 hours ago, PhataLerror said: What people here are not acknowledging is that this is the same thing that was being argued in Washington and San Francisco in 2012, and in Buffalo when Tyrod Taylor was a thing. You can see where Baltimore is toying with the idea of an athletic 'new breed' quarterback. Eventually defenses catch up. You can beat speed with smart football, because the defense will always ultimately have the angle. So you bring up Kaepernick, Tyrod Taylor, and RG3 when you talk about an "athletic new breed" quarterback, put Mahomes in this category, insinuate that they are not football smart, but there's no racist tone to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 15 minutes ago, dksww said: He won an NFL MVP in his first season starting, what more do you want? He was one possession or a Dee Ford offsides away from taking this team to the Super Bowl for the first time in 50 years, all with carrying the worst defense in Chiefs' history. Again, what more do you want? Cam Newton won an MVP. He's not even a good quarterback. I think little of that award. But for those who want to justify Mahomes, it's a great badge to latch onto. A lot of quarterbacks that don't sustain lengthy possessions expose their defenses to additional time on the field. Mahomes is part of the reason why the Chiefs' defense was so bad, even though it was as healthy as it had been in 2013 (without the catastrophic post-season collapse). I want a quarterback that makes a team better than the sum of its parts. Mahomes isn't that player. Maybe he will be one day, but there's a lot of growth needed to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: Yes. And as is the case with so many numbers, in this case an algorithm that especially rewards shot plays, Mahomes scored highly. When an algorithm favors a certain style of play that doesn't correlate directly to winning football, I don't pay it much mind. There are plenty of plays where Mahomes struggled from the pocket, and you saw it in the first half against the Patriots. It's an algorithm that determines passer rating from a clean pocket. He led the league. Correct, he did struggle at times, but less than any other QB in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 9 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: Cam Newton won an MVP. He's not even a good quarterback. I think little of that award. But for those who want to justify Mahomes, it's a great badge to latch onto. A lot of quarterbacks that don't sustain lengthy possessions expose their defenses to additional time on the field. Mahomes is part of the reason why the Chiefs' defense was so bad, even though it was as healthy as it had been in 2013 (without the catastrophic post-season collapse). I want a quarterback that makes a team better than the sum of its parts. Mahomes isn't that player. Maybe he will be one day, but there's a lot of growth needed to get there. lol, hilarious. It's interesting you used Cam Newton as example which isn't even close to the type of athlete Mahomes is. Mahomes mostly draws comparisons to Favre and Aaron Rodgers. Both won MVP awards, you don't see the correlation there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, kkuenn said: Watkins for half a year. Conley proved he was not any good so much we let him walk, Zach Fulton really? We had a 3rd string rb start in the playoff game and did very well. There has been rbs that do well without Smith. Hell even an aged Peterson continued to do well without Smith. Frank Gore had 1000 yards plus in 2005 and 2006 when Smith was injured. Then in 2013 to 2017 he had three 1000 plus yards and the other two seasons he had 967 and 961. Tell me again how he did not do do well without Smith? By the way, Fulton played in 100% of snap counts in the Titans loss. https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/08/chiefs-snap-counts-from-wild-card-round-playoff-loss/amp/ Fulton was garbage. Now he's the Texans' garbage. Gore hasn't played in the post-season since 2013, and he wouldn't have gotten there if Smith hadn't played the first half of 2012, nor if the 49ers' defense in 2013 hadn't been an all-time best squad. You'd have to watch the games to see why Gore's effectiveness suffered in the switch to Kaepernick: Gore went from being able to churn out consistent yardage on carries to a lot of very short-yardage runs buoyed by chunk plays off of misdirection during Harbaugh's transition into a read-option offense. Smith's final game as a 49er against the Seahawks saw Gore go off for 131 yards on 16 carries. A little over a year later, Gore managed 14 yards on 11 carries in what was one of many losses against the Seahawks. Sometimes mean averages conceal the reality faced by the runningbacks of teams whose quarterbacks have put up too much game tape without advancing in their game from the pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkuenn 3,614 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 10 minutes ago, dksww said: lol, hilarious. It's interesting you used Cam Newton as example which isn't even close to the type of athlete Mahomes is. Mahomes mostly draws comparisons to Favre and Aaron Rodgers. Both won MVP awards, you don't see the correlation there? Exactly. Funny as I believe he is the only one not on the Mahomes train here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkuenn 3,614 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 29 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: Fulton was garbage. Now he's the Texans' garbage. Gore hasn't played in the post-season since 2013, and he wouldn't have gotten there if Smith hadn't played the first half of 2012, nor if the 49ers' defense in 2013 hadn't been an all-time best squad. You'd have to watch the games to see why Gore's effectiveness suffered in the switch to Kaepernick: Gore went from being able to churn out consistent yardage on carries to a lot of very short-yardage runs buoyed by chunk plays off of misdirection during Harbaugh's transition into a read-option offense. Smith's final game as a 49er against the Seahawks saw Gore go off for 131 yards on 16 carries. A little over a year later, Gore managed 14 yards on 11 carries in what was one of many losses against the Seahawks. Sometimes mean averages conceal the reality faced by the runningbacks of teams whose quarterbacks have put up too much game tape without advancing in their game from the pocket. You mentioned zach Fulton, not me. You also said no rb does well without Smith, which in showed is not the case at all. Funny you mention just the Seahawks game for Gore when they won 2 games to get into the NFC championship that year. Goal post moving much here? Also Smith never played for them in the 2013 season lol. Gore was with Kaepnall that year and won 2 playoff games before losing in the championshopntonSeattle with shore as the RB. Try again and tell me how a rb does not do well without Smith? I mean he had 1000 yards rushing before and after him and he made the championship game without him too, bot times Kaep was the Qb. 2012 he played half the season and they went to the SB with gore and Kaep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, dksww said: lol, hilarious. It's interesting you used Cam Newton as example which isn't even close to the type of athlete Mahomes is. Mahomes mostly draws comparisons to Favre and Aaron Rodgers. Both won MVP awards, you don't see the correlation there? Mahomes didn't play like Aaron Rodgers when Rodgers won the MVP. Just as Newton was awarded MVP in Ginn's career year, Mahomes got the MVP nod in a year where Hill took advantage of the gaps in coverage that were a function of quality talent on the line and across the receiver corps. Chiefs fans have a shiny new toy. They'll enjoy it for a while. But eventually they'll realize that it doesn't make them happy if it doesn't win them Super Bowls. And shamefully, it didn't win them a Super Bowl when they had the healthiest, strongest team they had had in decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 20 minutes ago, dksww said: It's an algorithm that determines passer rating from a clean pocket. He led the league. Correct, he did struggle at times, but less than any other QB in the league. That's right. So when he can pitch. It didn't include attempts from the pocket 'with noise'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reesebobby 5,664 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: That's right. So when he can pitch. It didn't include attempts from the pocket 'with noise'. There ain't no pocket clean or noisy that Mahomes isn't better than Alex Smith. Every skill player on the team was better with Mahomes than Smith. Every single one. And the team was better, both regular season and post season. Any suggestion to the contrary shows a complete lack of any understanding of the game or is just trolling for kicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 15 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: Mahomes didn't play like Aaron Rodgers when Rodgers won the MVP. Just as Newton was awarded MVP in Ginn's career year, Mahomes got the MVP nod in a year where Hill took advantage of the gaps in coverage that were a function of quality talent on the line and across the receiver corps. Chiefs fans have a shiny new toy. They'll enjoy it for a while. But eventually they'll realize that it doesn't make them happy if it doesn't win them Super Bowls. And shamefully, it didn't win them a Super Bowl when they had the healthiest, strongest team they had had in decades. He threw for more yards and touchdowns that Rodgers when he won the MVP. Only 3 QBs have every thrown for 5,000 yards and 50 td's in a season: Mahomes, Brady and Peyton Manning. All 3 won MVP. I don't think you understand the meaning of MVP. Also, if you think the 2018 team was the healthiest and strongest Chiefs' team in decades then it's pretty obvious you didn't watch the games. I just dont' understand how having a team with the 31st ranked defense in the league(historically Chiefs' worst team defense ever) coincides with being one of the strongest teams. Oh well, I guess some people are just never satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mloe68 1,521 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, sith13 said: I think DE will be a priority, in fact I'm expecting one in 1st but I doubt it'll be the flashy new "edge rusher" type but rather a more classical DE who can do it all similar to Michael Bennett. Don't disagree with that. The weakside end has to be able to set the edge. But he's got to have some real pass rushing skills too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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