kkuenn 3,614 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: Mahomes didn't play like Aaron Rodgers when Rodgers won the MVP. Just as Newton was awarded MVP in Ginn's career year, Mahomes got the MVP nod in a year where Hill took advantage of the gaps in coverage that were a function of quality talent on the line and across the receiver corps. Chiefs fans have a shiny new toy. They'll enjoy it for a while. But eventually they'll realize that it doesn't make them happy if it doesn't win them Super Bowls. And shamefully, it didn't win them a Super Bowl when they had the healthiest, strongest team they had had in decades. You mean where Rodgers had them with 15 wins to never win a playoff game that year? Where Mahomes had more TDs, more yards and had a 113.8 qb rating (which Rodgers has never had higher other than his lone mvp year) which was behind Rodgers rating but Mahomes took his team to the AFC championship game at least and as stated a penalty for counting flip away in OT to the SB? Yeah he played nothing like Rodgers at all last year. Dont mind the all pro line he had in GB and his receivers etc. But still did not win an playoff game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 14 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: That's right. So when he can pitch. It didn't include attempts from the pocket 'with noise'. That's not what you were referring to earlier. Mitch Trubisky was top 5 I believe in passer rating while under pressure, above QBs like Mahomes, Brady and Rodgers...which means most of that was accomplished on short passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Look, I don't know what's happening here, but no one is this dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkuenn 3,614 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 9 minutes ago, dksww said: He threw for more yards and touchdowns that Rodgers when he won the MVP. Only 3 QBs have every thrown for 5,000 yards and 50 td's in a season: Mahomes, Brady and Peyton Manning. All 3 won MVP. I don't think you understand the meaning of MVP. Also, if you think the 2018 team was the healthiest and strongest Chiefs' team in decades then it's pretty obvious you didn't watch the games. I just dont' understand how having a team with the 31st ranked defense in the league(historically Chiefs' worst team defense ever) coincides with being one of the strongest teams. Oh well, I guess some people are just never satisfied. 10 minutes ago, dksww said: He threw for more yards and touchdowns that Rodgers when he won the MVP. Only 3 QBs have every thrown for 5,000 yards and 50 td's in a season: Mahomes, Brady and Peyton Manning. All 3 won MVP. I don't think you understand the meaning of MVP. Also, if you think the 2018 team was the healthiest and strongest Chiefs' team in decades then it's pretty obvious you didn't watch the games. I just dont' understand how having a team with the 31st ranked defense in the league(historically Chiefs' worst team defense ever) coincides with being one of the strongest teams. Oh well, I guess some people are just never satisfied. Actually he is only the 2nd to throw for 50 TDs and 5000 yards along with Manning. He is just the 3rd to throw for 50 tds though with Manning and Brady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 15 minutes ago, dksww said: I don't think you understand the meaning of MVP. Sure I do. The problem is that the Associated Press doesn't. You must be aware of the common argument that arises from MVP awards: Is it to be doled out to the player with the most individual accomplishments (despite those accomplishments being team-dependent), or is it to be awarded to the player who elevated his team more so than any other individual in the league? It's certainly easier to judge a player among his peers on a simple single-year statistical comparison void of context rather than evaluate the contributions of individuals in the context of their assigned team with the additional duty to project that team's accomplishments in the absence of said individual. Since the MVP's are selected by writers who don't have the time to break down the film of 256 games per year, there is no mechanism for a more comprehensive review of how individuals affect their teams. Therefore we have the simplistic process that ultimately names more than a few players as MVP even though they will never be legitimate Hall of Fame candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, kkuenn said: Actually he is only the 2nd to throw for 50 TDs and 5000 yards along with Manning. He is just the 3rd to throw for 50 tds though with Manning and Brady ah, i thought they had done both as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 35 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: Sure I do. The problem is that the Associated Press doesn't. You must be aware of the common argument that arises from MVP awards: Is it to be doled out to the player with the most individual accomplishments (despite those accomplishments being team-dependent), or is it to be awarded to the player who elevated his team more so than any other individual in the league? It's certainly easier to judge a player among his peers on a simple single-year statistical comparison void of context rather than evaluate the contributions of individuals in the context of their assigned team with the additional duty to project that team's accomplishments in the absence of said individual. Since the MVP's are selected by writers who don't have the time to break down the film of 256 games per year, there is no mechanism for a more comprehensive review of how individuals affect their teams. Therefore we have the simplistic process that ultimately names more than a few players as MVP even though they will never be legitimate Hall of Fame candidates. How many former NFL MVP do you think there are that have not made the HOF? And guys currently playing or are not eligible do not count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mloe68 1,521 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 2. PATRICK MAHOMES, KANSAS CITY CHIEFS Overall Grade: 93.2 Mahomes’ clean-pocket passer rating (134.2) led all qualifying signal-callers in 2018. He also led the league in big-time throws (46) and ranked third in total big-time throw percentage (7.9). Patrick Mahomes’ first starting season was incredible, and that doesn’t change when you look at his play under pressure. He led the league in PFF grade when hurried, and has 14 big-time throws on those dropbacks, three more than anybody else. What’s even more remarkable, is that the lead he holds over the rest of the field gets even bigger if you focus on the money downs – third and fourth down. 22. ALEX SMITH, WASHINGTON REDSKINS Overall Grade:70.2 Before going down with an injury, Smith was everything we expected him to be in Washington. He led the NFL in turnover-worthy throw percentage from a clean pocket (0.84%), but his big-time throw percentage from a clean pocket (2.93%) still ranked inside the bottom-three in the NFL. His tendency to stay safe with the football keeps it out of harm’s way, but he’s often too safe with it and misses big plays as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 When you got a chance to take worse, bah gawd, you gotta do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 10 minutes ago, dksww said: How many former NFL MVPs haven't made the HOF? Not including current and recent players: Larry Brown (RB), Earl Morrall (QB), Roman Gabriel (QB), Brian Sipe (QB), Joe Theismann (QB), Boomer Esiason (QB), Rich Gannon (QB), John Brodie (QB), Ken Anderson (QB), Bert Jones (QB), Steve McNair, and Mark Moseley (K). A total of 12, out of 55 named. (I don't think Matt Ryan or Cam Newton will get in.) Many Hall of Fame players actually won multiple MVP awards. And, of course, MVP voting favors quarterbacks. There is a legitimate argument to be made that Aaron Donald should have been the MVP winner this year, but again, you'd have to watch film to truly appreciate what Donald did. There is no way to correlate passing yards to sacks in any kind of direct comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 27 minutes ago, dksww said: How many former NFL MVP do you think there are that have not made the HOF? And guys currently playing or are not eligible do not count. Edit: The answer, from what I can tell, is less than 5 and I didn't include guys from 2005 on who are still playing or are just now becoming eligible like Steve McNair. Steve McNair's been eligible for years. But he hasn't been voted in yet, and there are more worthy players to be added who have never won an MVP award (primarily because they weren't quarterbacks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 18 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: Not including current and recent players: Larry Brown (RB), Earl Morrall (QB), Roman Gabriel (QB), Brian Sipe (QB), Joe Theismann (QB), Boomer Esiason (QB), Rich Gannon (QB), John Brodie (QB), Ken Anderson (QB), Bert Jones (QB), Steve McNair, and Mark Moseley (K). A total of 12, out of 55 named. (I don't think Matt Ryan or Cam Newton will get in.) Many Hall of Fame players actually won multiple MVP awards. And, of course, MVP voting favors quarterbacks. There is a legitimate argument to be made that Aaron Donald should have been the MVP winner this year, but again, you'd have to watch film to truly appreciate what Donald did. There is no way to correlate passing yards to sacks in any kind of direct comparison. 12 of 55 isn't exactly the amount of frequency you were claiming though and, counting someone like McNair is tick tack, considering he died and couldn't pad his stats. He's been eligible since 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, dksww said: 12 of 55 isn't exactly the amount of frequency you were claiming though. "More than a few". (I forgot to list Shaun Alexander, runningback.) 55 MVP's have been named during the Super Bowl era. The last 12 years' MVP award winners and one of the 2003 co-MVP's aren't yet eligible for induction. That leaves 42 past winners to be compared. Brett Favre (3), Joe Montana (2), Steve Young (2), and Kurt Warner (2) have combined for 9 MVP awards. That means that there are only 37 unique MVP award winners eligible for Hall of Fame voting. That means that more than a third of the players to win the MVP award did not earn a place in the Hall of Fame. That's indeed "more than a few," and depending on how you reckon the phrase, more than "more than a few". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palangi 788 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 That's it... trade mahomes! Phata has declared him a 1 year wonder already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reesebobby 5,664 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, dksww said: 12 of 55 isn't exactly the amount of frequency you were claiming though and, counting someone like McNair is tick tack, considering he died and couldn't pad his stats. He's been eligible since 2014. Of the past 25 MVP's prior to Mahomes, 20 of them were won either by hall of famers or locks like Brady and Rodgers. A couple have yet to be determined, Matt Ryan and Newton. And then Gannon, McNair and Alexander. It's a pretty good predictor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 I already mentioned that I didn't care for Steve Young, and don't believe he should be in the Hall of Fame. That being said, the criteria for being in the Hall of Fame are much stricter than the criteria for being a league MVP. There aren't a lot of people in the Hall of Fame who aren't arguably the equal of others at their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 25 minutes ago, dksww said: 12 of 55 isn't exactly the amount of frequency you were claiming though and, counting someone like McNair is tick tack, considering he died and couldn't pad his stats. He's been eligible since 2014. You're incorrect about McNair. He retired from the NFL in 2007, two years before he was murdered. The stats weren't going to get any bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, Palangi said: That's it... trade mahomes! Phata has declared him a 1 year wonder already. and next year when he throws for 4900 yards and 49 TD's he's say "See, told ya he would regress". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reesebobby 5,664 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, dksww said: Look, I don't know what's happening here, but no one is this dumb. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, Palangi said: That's it... trade mahomes! Phata has declared him a 1 year wonder already. I didn't declare him a one-year wonder. For comparison, when Kaepernick was playing in 2013, I was skeptical that he was going to have long-term success in the league, but I didn't slap the Product-of-a-System label on him until the beginning of 2014, when it became evident that there was going to be no further progression. Mahomes isn't a one-year wonder. Yet. But he's got a tremendous amount of growth to achieve to prevent that end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksww 484 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 minute ago, PhataLerror said: You're incorrect about McNair. He retired from the NFL in 2007, two years before he was murdered. The stats weren't going to get any bigger. He still has a chance to get in and I believe he was on the ballot this year almost making it to the finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, dksww said: and next year when he throws for 4900 yards and 49 TD's he's say "See, told ya he would regress". How many interceptions and lost fumbles, and how many losses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, dksww said: He still has a chance to get in and I believe he was on the ballot this year almost making it to the finals. If he gets in, it may have the asterisk that applies to Ken Stabler: He didn't get elected until a year after he died. Voters can be superstitious that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reesebobby 5,664 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, PhataLerror said: I didn't declare him a one-year wonder. For comparison, when Kaepernick was playing in 2013, I was skeptical that he was going to have long-term success in the league, but I didn't slap the Product-of-a-System label on him until the beginning of 2014, when it became evident that there was going to be no further progression. Mahomes isn't a one-year wonder. Yet. But he's got a tremendous amount of growth to achieve to prevent that end. Look, we know you're not that stupid. You figured out how to type. And made it to the internet. You use big words like progression and skeptical. And you can spell Kaepernick. You are obviously just funning with us, because nobody that can spell Kaepernick could be that stupid. Skeptical and progression would probably get auto corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer 8,694 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 minute ago, reesebobby said: Look, we know you're not that stupid. You figured out how to type. And made it to the internet. You use big words like progression and skeptical. And you can spell Kaepernick. You are obviously just funning with us, because nobody that can spell Kaepernick could be that stupid. Skeptical and progression would probably get auto corrected. you dont know phatal like we know phatal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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