Some rumors out there Chiefs trying to trade you know who

[PhataLerror 370]

Just now, PAChiefsFan79 said:

I don't, how about you just tell us what you think regression is so we don't have to guess what you would agree to.

I want to see him complete a higher percentage of passes and an improvement in his rate of first down conversions. As someone mentioned elsewhere, he needs to recognize when checking down is the right decision. If he could add to the shot play the ability to string together completions and grind away at defenses while keeping his own off the field, he would strengthen his game in a necessary way.

I won't hang wins or losses exclusively on any quarterback, and with free agency underway and the draft yet ahead, it's hard to project a record for the Chiefs, especially with the losses sustained in free agency. That being said, if Mahomes' losses keep coming in games where the opponent dominated time of possession, failure to progress would be a part of that.

True regression as a quarterback (as opposed to statistical regression) is often a consequence of getting beat up behind center, but the Chiefs' commitment to their offensive line provides a measure of protection against that.

[Mloe68 1,521]

3 hours ago, PhataLerror said:

That's right. So when he can pitch. It didn't include attempts from the pocket 'with noise'.

Your narrative seems to change with each post. MVPat LED the NFL in passer rating while under duress. Poise, pocket presence and arm strength that doesn’t require him to be set makes a big difference. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

14 minutes ago, PhataLerror said:

I want to see him complete a higher percentage of passes and an improvement in his rate of first down conversions. As someone mentioned elsewhere, he needs to recognize when checking down is the right decision. If he could add to the shot play the ability to string together completions and grind away at defenses while keeping his own off the field, he would strengthen his game in a necessary way.

I won't hang wins or losses exclusively on any quarterback, and with free agency underway and the draft yet ahead, it's hard to project a record for the Chiefs, especially with the losses sustained in free agency. That being said, if Mahomes' losses keep coming in games where the opponent dominated time of possession, failure to progress would be a part of that.

True regression as a quarterback (as opposed to statistical regression) is often a consequence of getting beat up behind center, but the Chiefs' commitment to their offensive line provides a measure of protection against that.

Wondering what offensive line upgrade we’ve had since Mahomes got here?  What you incomprehensibly fail to recognize is the QBs responsibility in pass protection through his own actions.

Clearly a worse group this year than 2017 because of many injuries provided a clearly better statistical performance. Why do you think that is? Really not hard to figure it out. 

[kkuenn 3,614]

10 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

Wondering what offensive line upgrade we’ve had since Mahomes got here?  What you incomprehensibly fail to recognize is the QBs responsibility in pass protection through his own actions.

Clearly a worse group this year than 2017 because of many injuries provided a clearly better statistical performance. Why do you think that is? Really not hard to figure it out. 

We had the same line as last year pretty much. Morse was out and then both our guards go out and Mahomes keeps churning. Hell he made Fisher in to a pro bowl LT! Mahomes also goes off the play calls from Reid. We know Reid does not like to run to much so there in itself is an issue he cant control. I mean he drove down for an game tying fg with a minute to go. Also helps if your defense can make stops and allow the offense to get time too. Kind if hard to win TOP whem your defense keeps giving up 3rd and longs and allows 12 play drives etc.

[Mloe68 1,521]

43 minutes ago, xen said:

He effectively is untradeable since KC would not give him up for any price.  Frankly a 23 year old league MVP at the most important position in sports is priceless.  But yeah, at least that would be offered if he was on the market.  With at least half of the league bidding it would get ridiculous fast.

No doubt he’s untradable. Didn’t mean to imply that!

[kkuenn 3,614]

28 minutes ago, PhataLerror said:

I want to see him complete a higher percentage of passes and an improvement in his rate of first down conversions. As someone mentioned elsewhere, he needs to recognize when checking down is the right decision. If he could add to the shot play the ability to string together completions and grind away at defenses while keeping his own off the field, he would strengthen his game in a necessary way.

I won't hang wins or losses exclusively on any quarterback, and with free agency underway and the draft yet ahead, it's hard to project a record for the Chiefs, especially with the losses sustained in free agency. That being said, if Mahomes' losses keep coming in games where the opponent dominated time of possession, failure to progress would be a part of that.

True regression as a quarterback (as opposed to statistical regression) is often a consequence of getting beat up behind center, but the Chiefs' commitment to their offensive line provides a measure of protection against that.

You know Smith only had 4 seasons of higher completion percentage of 65.3 that Mahomes had right? 2 of those seasons were only 10 game seasons. He did tie him in one other season and this was Mahomes first season as a starter too so he will learn also. Funny last year, even shortened for Smith he had a lower completion rate. While Mahomes threw it much longer and did not always take the easy outs of check downs or he would have been even better. 

 

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player/alex-smith-2

[liquidfriend 1,151]

6 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

You know Smith only had 4 seasons of higher completion percentage of 65.3 that Mahomes had right? 2 of those seasons were only 10 game seasons. He did tie him in one other season and this was Mahomes first season as a starter too so he will learn also. Funny last year, even shortened for Smith he had a lower completion rate. While Mahomes threw it much longer and did not always take the easy outs of check downs or he would have been even better. 

 

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player/alex-smith-2

Yeah but did Mahomes go an entire season without throwing a single TD to a WR?  I think not!

[Mloe68 1,521]

55 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

We had the same line as last year pretty much. Morse was out and then both our guards go out and Mahomes keeps churning. Hell he made Fisher in to a pro bowl LT! Mahomes also goes off the play calls from Reid. We know Reid does not like to run to much so there in itself is an issue he cant control. I mean he drove down for an game tying fg with a minute to go. Also helps if your defense can make stops and allow the offense to get time too. Kind if hard to win TOP whem your defense keeps giving up 3rd and longs and allows 12 play drives etc.

Again he’s just grasping at straws hoping something will hit. We were third in the NFL in avoiding three and outs at 22 percent. In 2017 we were at 30 percent.  We also converted 47 percent of third downs (3rd overall) compared with 39 percent in 2017.

We also lost the benefit of the leagues rushing leader and had a journeyman backup third stringer play in his place. This is how you run the clock out with leads. On point we led 17 of our 18 games late in the fourth quarter. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

10 minutes ago, liquidfriend said:

Yeah but did Mahomes go an entire season without throwing a single TD to a WR?  I think not!

That’s hard to do for anyone much less an MVP.  Not coincidentally Conley had ONE TD in 37 career games with Smith. Five in 16 games with MVPat.  Robinson had ONE in 39 targets with Alex.  Four in 32 targets with MVPat.  Harris TWO in thirty plus games with Alex. Three in 15 games with MVPat.  It’s staggering really how much a true QB1 can elevate even the most average of players vs a QB2B like we had. 

[PhataLerror 370]

32 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

We had the same line as last year pretty much. Morse was out and then both our guards go out and Mahomes keeps churning. Hell he made Fisher in to a pro bowl LT! Mahomes also goes off the play calls from Reid. We know Reid does not like to run to much so there in itself is an issue he cant control. I mean he drove down for an game tying fg with a minute to go. Also helps if your defense can make stops and allow the offense to get time too. Kind if hard to win TOP whem your defense keeps giving up 3rd and longs and allows 12 play drives etc.

So why wasn't that reasoning applied when Smith was quarterbacking against the Titans with an 18-point lead?

The Chiefs did not have Zach Fulton, the weak link in 2017's offensive line group. I would take any of the three guys that filled in between the tackles over Fulton. (By the way, Deshaun Watson was sacked 62 times, and never looked like an MVP candidate. Zach Fulton started 14 games last year. In the three games he missed, Watson was sacked an average of twice per game, rather than 3.65 times per game.)

[PhataLerror 370]

3 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

It’s staggering really how much a true QB1 WR1 can elevate even the most average of players vs a QB2 Demarcus Robinson like we had. 

Fixed.

[liquidfriend 1,151]

5 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

That’s hard to do for anyone much less an MVP.  Not coincidentally Conley had ONE TD in 37 career games with Smith. Five in 16 games with MVPat.  Robinson had ONE in 39 targets with Alex.  Four in 32 targets with MVPat.  Harris TWO in thirty plus games with Alex. Three in 15 games with MVPat.  It’s staggering really how much a true QB1 can elevate even the most average of players vs a QB2B like we had. 

Yeah but gosh he's so swell.  Wasted the final years of a top tier Defense, but super nice!

[PhataLerror 370]

34 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

You know Smith only had 4 seasons of higher completion percentage of 65.3 that Mahomes had right? 2 of those seasons were only 10 game seasons. He did tie him in one other season and this was Mahomes first season as a starter too so he will learn also. Funny last year, even shortened for Smith he had a lower completion rate. While Mahomes threw it much longer and did not always take the easy outs of check downs or he would have been even better. 

 

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player/alex-smith-2

I'm curious: Did you watch Smith's games? Do you care to venture a guess as to how many unique combinations of linemen hit the field between the start of the season and Smith's compound fracture? Ever heard of Maurice Harris? Do you have any idea why Smith's volume stats are the way they have been? Because you speak without regard for context.

[the Warparty 69]

I agree with Phatal on a couple of things😮

Fulton was/is not good. Slightly better at center.

Mahomes MIGHT learn to control his clock a bit better. By that I mean small ball/possession oriented drives.

Back on topic; Hill IS a number one wideout. Just look at Belechecks treatment of him to know that.

 

Go ahead Phatal, argue with possibly the greatest head coach of all time . . .

[PhataLerror 370]

2 minutes ago, the Warparty said:

I agree with Phatal on a couple of things😮

Fulton was/is not good. Slightly better at center.

Mahomes MIGHT learn to control his clock a bit better. By that I mean small ball/possession oriented drives.

Back on topic; Hill IS a number one wideout. Just look at Belechecks treatment of him to know that.

 

Go ahead Phatal, argue with possibly the greatest head coach of all time . . .

As I had already stated, in one game Belichick's defense let Hill score three times, whereas in another game, Belichick shut Hill down. In both games, the Patriots outscored the Chiefs. Mahomes' success in protecting the football coupled with Kansas City's timely forcing of two turnovers combined to improve scoring in the second meeting of these teams, despite the fact that Belichick was very effective in limiting Mahomes' air attack.

I've never suggested that defenses could just ignore Hill, but I've been on board with the Watkins signing since day one for what it was going to do for the rest of the team. It's just a shame that the Chiefs failed to get a receiver as good as Watkins sooner. The Maclin signing would have been sufficient, but he never managed to be healthy at the end of a long season.

[Mloe68 1,521]

25 minutes ago, PhataLerror said:

So why wasn't that reasoning applied when Smith was quarterbacking against the Titans with an 18-point lead?

The Chiefs did not have Zach Fulton, the weak link in 2017's offensive line group. I would take any of the three guys that filled in between the tackles over Fulton. (By the way, Deshaun Watson was sacked 62 times, and never looked like an MVP candidate. Zach Fulton started 14 games last year. In the three games he missed, Watson was sacked an average of twice per game, rather than 3.65 times per game.)

That Titans game is a complete miscocosm of the difference between these two guys. Alex Smith took over on the Chiefs last drive with almost 6 minutes left and needed only a FG to beat a very mediocre Titans team that was just happy to be there. His failures on that drive with proper reads or situational understanding  directly resulted in yet another team failure.  

Meanwhile a week after the Mahomes led Chiefs beat up a much better Colts team than the Titans had we had a similiar but much more challenging scenario in the AFC Title game.  First with 3:30 left and needing a TD to take the lead, Mahomes drives us 70 yards and got that TD.  On the biggest stage against the best coach of our generation.  Unfortunately our historically bad defense and a game deciding mental error by Dee Ford cost us the Super Bowl and the Pats scores.  

Except with this QB it’s not doomsday to be up against the wall needing a FG, 75 yards with only 1:18 left and 1 timeout.  Who’s he find to get us into FG range? Spencer Ware and DeMarcus Robinson.  This is what elite QBs can do. And what Alex never delivered for us in January. Four for four failed last drives in close games. And that’s what a mid tier journeyman QB delivers. 

So throw out the massive offensive production of MVPat. The massive improvement in our overall offense almost across the board. And if you want you can narrow down his clear superiority to one postseason that he delivered as a 23 year old but Alex never could for us despite being a 13 year veteran.  

You seem to provide reasons for everything whether backed by facts or not. But I see zero difference between reasons and excuses for continually failing at crucial times. I was always a big Alex Smith advocate because he’s a good guy and a very solid QB.   But this is something FAR different and 99.9 percent of anyone that knows anything about football knows it.  Most importantly Chiefs fans can finally celebrate our own star at sports most important position. 

[Chiefswinitall 60]

Mahomes should have played the last few games of the 2017 season instead of Alex.  It would have been a very tough bitch call to make but we might have beat the titans  that year.

[PhataLerror 370]

4 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

That Titans game is a complete miscocosm of the difference between these two guys. Alex Smith took over on the Chiefs last drive with almost 6 minutes left and needed only a FG to beat a very mediocre Titans team that was just happy to be there. His failures on that drive with proper reads or situational understanding  directly resulted in yet another team failure.  

Meanwhile a week after the Mahomes led Chiefs beat up a much better Colts team than the Titans had we had a similiar but much more challenging scenario in the AFC Title game.  First with 3:30 left and needing a TD to take the lead, Mahomes drives us 70 yards and got that TD.  On the biggest stage against the best coach of our generation.  Unfortunately our historically bad defense and a game deciding mental error by Dee Ford cost us the Super Bowl and the Pats scores.  

Except with this QB it’s not doomsday to be up against the wall needing a FG, 75 yards with only 1:18 left and 1 timeout.  Who’s he find to get us into FG range? Spencer Ware and DeMarcus Robinson.  This is what elite QBs can do. And what Alex never delivered for us in January. Four for four failed last drives in close games. And that’s what a mid tier journeyman QB delivers. 

So throw out the massive offensive production of MVPat. The massive improvement in our overall offense almost across the board. And if you want you can narrow down his clear superiority to one postseason that he delivered as a 23 year old but Alex never could for us despite being a 13 year veteran.  

You seem to provide reasons for everything whether backed by facts or not. But I see zero difference between reasons and excuses for continually failing at crucial times. I was always a big Alex Smith advocate because he’s a good guy and a very solid QB.   But this is something FAR different and 99.9 percent of anyone that knows anything about football knows it.  Most importantly Chiefs fans can finally celebrate our own star at sports most important position. 

Was it Smith's failure that Hill disappeared without Kelce to draw away coverage? Was it Smith's failure that his second-best option was Albert Wilson, and his third-best, Demarcus Robinson?

I'm most interested in seeing what Mahomes does when his best targets are Demarcus Robinson, and two other receivers with minimal talent and NFL experience.

And Mahomes' defense didn't let him down the way the Chiefs' defense let down Smith in 2013. That narrative can die yesterday.

[kkuenn 3,614]

1 hour ago, PhataLerror said:

I'm curious: Did you watch Smith's games? Do you care to venture a guess as to how many unique combinations of linemen hit the field between the start of the season and Smith's compound fracture? Ever heard of Maurice Harris? Do you have any idea why Smith's volume stats are the way they have been? Because you speak without regard for context.

Context? His whole career he has had 4 seasons,  2 of which were only 10 games that he was higher. Thos includes the good lines he had at SF. All the while we had a practice squad player  drafted in the 7th round take over at center and a new right guard in week 5 who was undrafted take over at RG. Yet look at Mahomes stats last season, many of which you ignore. Top yards over 5k. 50 TDs. Best outside the pocket and one of the best inside of it. Great qb rating, better completion percentage than Smith and he did so with more games.than Smith who might have regressed as the season went on. That and the fact our sacks.went down last year with him at qb. Dont forget Hunt thst he did not have in the playoffs and we had our 3rd string RB in....What more proof do you need? Sheesh

[kkuenn 3,614]

25 minutes ago, PhataLerror said:

As I had already stated, in one game Belichick's defense let Hill score three times, whereas in another game, Belichick shut Hill down. In both games, the Patriots outscored the Chiefs. Mahomes' success in protecting the football coupled with Kansas City's timely forcing of two turnovers combined to improve scoring in the second meeting of these teams, despite the fact that Belichick was very effective in limiting Mahomes' air attack.

I've never suggested that defenses could just ignore Hill, but I've been on board with the Watkins signing since day one for what it was going to do for the rest of the team. It's just a shame that the Chiefs failed to get a receiver as good as Watkins sooner. The Maclin signing would have been sufficient, but he never managed to be healthy at the end of a long season.

Maclin never managed to be healthy at end of a season but Watkins missing almost 9 games does not matter? Stats show how Conley, Harris and Robinson had more catches and TDs than he did with Smith who had them for may more games as pointed out earlier. Go root on the Redskins and Smith. I believe you are the only one who would take Smith over Mahomes.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

1 hour ago, PhataLerror said:

I'm curious: Did you watch Smith's games? Do you care to venture a guess as to how many unique combinations of linemen hit the field between the start of the season and Smith's compound fracture? Ever heard of Maurice Harris? Do you have any idea why Smith's volume stats are the way they have been? Because you speak without regard for context.

You dont actually believe Alex Smith is better than Mahomes do you? A lot of people are saying it for you, but I dont know that Ive heard you say it. 

[PhataLerror 370]

3 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Context? His whole career he has had 4 seasons,  2 of which were only 10 games that he was higher. Thos includes the good lines he had at SF. All the while we had a practice squad player  drafted in the 7th round take over at center and a new right guard in week 5 who was undrafted take over at RG. Yet look at Mahomes stats last season, many of which you ignore. Top yards over 5k. 50 TDs. Best outside the pocket and one of the best inside of it. Great qb rating, better completion percentage than Smith and he did so with more games.than Smith who might have regressed as the season went on. That and the fact our sacks.went down last year with him at qb. What more proof do you need? Sheesh

Dude, Smith did not have good pass-blocking lines in San Francisco, and in the earlier days, the defense was hot garbage. By 2011, Smith had a strong run-blocking line, but the Ravens exposed backup guard Chilo Rachal to the tune of 9 sacks against Smith. You cite draft pedigree as a basis for evaluation (?), and while acknowledging that I don't agree with a lot of what PFF publishes, Austin Reiter graded out at above average, while Andrew Wylie was identified as average. The weakest, according to PFF, was Cameron Erving, who was also on the field too much during Smith's 2017 campaign.

When Smith was fighting from behind a porous line, he didn't have relevant go-to players if his first read was double-covered. Albert Wilson struggled with drops and getting open, while Demarcus Robinson could hardly be found. A lot changed with the arrival of Sammy Watkins. You choose not to acknowledge that.

[dksww 484]

23 minutes ago, PhataLerror said:

Was it Smith's failure that Hill disappeared without Kelce to draw away coverage? Was it Smith's failure that his second-best option was Albert Wilson, and his third-best, Demarcus Robinson?

I'm most interested in seeing what Mahomes does when his best targets are Demarcus Robinson, and two other receivers with minimal talent and NFL experience.

And Mahomes' defense didn't let him down the way the Chiefs' defense let down Smith in 2013. That narrative can die yesterday.

lol absolutely ridiculous.

all you can do is laugh.

[PhataLerror 370]

6 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

You dont actually believe Alex Smith is better than Mahomes do you? A lot of people are saying it for you, but I dont know that Ive heard you say it. 

Before the broken leg, I thought Smith was the better long-term prospect.

Realistically, Smith may be done. He's spent his entire career paying for the sins of his front offices, coaches, and teammates, and after all of that, the pursuit of a Super Bowl wasn't worth what he's been through since November.

[kkuenn 3,614]

Andrew Siciliano ✔@AndrewSiciliano Patrick Mahomes, in his 9th game, has 28 TD passes. Alex Smith, in 15 games last year, threw 26 TD passes for the Chiefs.