Chiefs trade for DE from Browns

[kkuenn 3,613]

4 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

It’s not a good thing Wilkie, but it’s the right thing to do. We’ve been down this road during Vermiel era where we tried to band aid a pourous defense instead of rebuild it, and it was a complete disaster. And yes we could have tried the Rams approach to go all in with expensive veterans and then paid a steep price later. But they lost to the Patriots just like we did. 

Weve got a 23 year old superstar QB. And that means a decade long flow of windows is likely.  Why not build the defense from the ground floor with pieces that make sense and with contract flexibility which doesn’t force us to cut.a good player. To me this only widens rather than narrows the Super Bowl window. 

In the short term we need to wait out and see what Veach does to add pieces with with cap room and draft pick capital he’s acquired.  But logically yes it’s probably going to be a struggle on defense with so many new and young pieces.  Good news is we have a clear upgrade in the defensive coaching staff to narrow the learning curve. And Spags has proven in both reclamation projects he inherited that year 2 we will see some huge dividends. 

So we are trying to pair a young emerginig defense with a young once in a generation type talent at QB.  And in 2019 the hope is they can grow and improve to the point we can help us in earnest down the stretch while expecting big improvements in 2020. The is bold long term thinking and not something this franchise is known for  

We can’t do much about the Kareem Hunt or Tyreek Hill type situations   They were both late round steals for a reason   Control what we can control and take risks where the reward has more value than the downside   

 

I think if Hunt had not done what he did, we would have won the SB, at least been in it. With Hunt running and his threat as a weapon would have been a huge boost. I know we did get a lot out of our RB in the AFC Championship game, but I do not think we go TD less the first half with Hunt in either.

[Mloe68 1,521]

1 hour ago, Troyofoc said:

From pff. 

Ogbah has yet to earn a pass-rush grade above 60.5 in his three-year career despite rushing the passer at least 268 times in each of the past three seasons. Rushing the passer a career-high 496 times this past season, he ranked dead last in pass-rush win percentage (7.5%) among the 61 NFL edge defenders with at least 300 pass-rushes on the year.

 

sorry as the 32 pick in 2016 draft that sounds like a bust to me. Sounds like he might of had a few sacks he just ran into. There is a reason they let him go for a backup at best safety.

Your measuring expectation vs draft position which is understandable but under those pretenses we are trading a 4th rounder for essentially a 1st rounder and paying him half as much as the 4th rounder.  Doesn’t that represent value when combined with reality neither player has established himself in this league yet.  

 

[dksww 484]

1 hour ago, Troyofoc said:

From pff. 

Ogbah has yet to earn a pass-rush grade above 60.5 in his three-year career despite rushing the passer at least 268 times in each of the past three seasons. Rushing the passer a career-high 496 times this past season, he ranked dead last in pass-rush win percentage (7.5%) among the 61 NFL edge defenders with at least 300 pass-rushes on the year.

 

sorry as the 32 pick in 2016 draft that sounds like a bust to me. Sounds like he might of had a few sacks he just ran into. There is a reason they let him go for a backup at best safety.

Eric Murray is awful.  He's for sure a bust.  The Chiefs just traded a 4th round talent for 2nd round talent straight up.

It's a change of scenery might help trade for each guy.

[Mloe68 1,521]

34 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

I think if Hunt had not done what he did, we would have won the SB, at least been in it. With Hunt running and his threat as a weapon would have been a huge boost. I know we did get a lot out of our RB in the AFC Championship game, but I do not think we go TD less the first half with Hunt in either.

You are probably right although I will say Damian Williams was a beast in the playoffs. Still Hunt brings another dimension as a guy who’s really hard to bring down.  I hope we draft a RB in the 3rd round area. 

[dksww 484]

22 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

I think if Hunt had not done what he did, we would have won the SB, at least been in it. With Hunt running and his threat as a weapon would have been a huge boost. I know we did get a lot out of our RB in the AFC Championship game, but I do not think we go TD less the first half with Hunt in either.

I'm not sure it mattered because our defense couldn't get the Pats off the field.  The problem with that game was we could never get the ball.  Granted when we did in the first half, there wasn't much success, but I think the Chiefs only had the ball 3 or 4 times in the first half.

The Pats had the ball for like 42 minutes the whole game as well. 

[soonerborn77 276]

6 hours ago, moons314 said:

Super bowl windows are indeed short, unless you have an absolute stud at qb, then they stay open far longer.  Joe Montana , Jim Kelly , Steve young , Tom Brady. Mahomes is barely old enough to walk in a bar and buy a beer yet he’s already bagged an mvp award. Our window is not small. 2019 is not a make or break year where everything gets torn down and start over if we don’t win the super bowl. 

STOP MAKING SENSE!!!!!

 

 

[soonerborn77 276]

12 hours ago, wilkie said:

85% new starters on defense?  This is a good thing?   85% of our defense has not played together before and they are going to play defense for a coach that has not coached any Chiefs defense before?   What have you been smoking?   The superbowl window is a very short opportunity.   We threw the baby out with the bathwater and now we have chumped it.

I don't think we were a few pieces away from fixing this defense, so yes getting rid of our d-coordinator and a few pieces that would have cost a lot of $ is a good thing.  You mention the patriots, that's exactly what they do on defense, they let the expensive or soon to be expensive players walk and let the young players come in hungry which we will do with all our draft picks...

[dksww 484]

12 hours ago, wilkie said:

85% new starters on defense?  This is a good thing?   85% of our defense has not played together before and they are going to play defense for a coach that has not coached any Chiefs defense before?   What have you been smoking?   The superbowl window is a very short opportunity.   We threw the baby out with the bathwater and now we have chumped it.

Well it sure as hell didn't work before, did you not see last year, ranked 31st overall?

I'll take some of what you're smoking though 🤣

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

13 hours ago, wilkie said:

85% new starters on defense?  This is a good thing?   85% of our defense has not played together before and they are going to play defense for a coach that has not coached any Chiefs defense before?   What have you been smoking?   The superbowl window is a very short opportunity.   We threw the baby out with the bathwater and now we have chumped it.

The Superbowl window is absolutely not a very short opportunity. When you have an elite QB and a top 5 HC, every season there should be a realistic chance to go.

Why is the window short? Because some of our best players wont be here in a few yrs? They will be replaced with more good players. 

As long as we have a GM who drafts well and manages the cap well there is no reason to think that we have a closing window.

Hes 23. Hes never gonna play in a other jersey. Yes he will have a huge cap number in a few yrs. As do many other QBs. It doesnt take away a GMs ability to build a good team around the QB. It just means that they have to draft well.

If Mahomes was 33 this line of thinking would make sense. Our SB window is just opening. And starting with a blank canvas on defense does not mean that this unit will be awful. It means they get a fresh start. 

[Troyofoc 361]

2 hours ago, oldtimer said:

so you'd rather have Murray back

Not at all if you read my previous post. For Murray I liked it. Hoping for the best scenery/coach can turn him around. Just stating he has been a bust so far, yes to me we can have different opinions on what a bust is. We have had players who are busts that have played thier share of games.  Sims,tank,Baldwin  I can go on I feel 1-2 rounders who can't get a second contract are busts.

[oldtimer 8,694]

4 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

 

If Mahomes was 33 this line of thinking would make sense. Our SB window is just opening. And starting with a blank canvas on defense does not mean that this unit will be awful. It means they get a fresh start. 

exactamundo

[Troyofoc 361]

1 hour ago, Mloe68 said:

Your measuring expectation vs draft position which is understandable but under those pretenses we are trading a 4th rounder for essentially a 1st rounder and paying him half as much as the 4th rounder.  Doesn’t that represent value when combined with reality neither player has established himself in this league yet.  

 

Sorry guys maybe I'm not coming across how I want. No doubt I like this trade, couldn't stand murry. And I feel we can maybe get something out of the new guy, just feel he has been a bust for the browns to date which lead them to trade him.

[PAChiefsFan79 136]

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/4/2/18291472/new-chiefs-defensive-end-emmanuel-ogbah-brings-length-leverage-and-strength-to-the-table

 

I was saying this before in other threads. This defense is not built on individual talent winning matchups. This defense is about using talent to scheme pressure. Twists, stunts, etc... Chiefs don't need studs, they need capable players that can execute the defensive plans.

[xen 1,010,220]

1 hour ago, dksww said:

I'll take some of what you're smoking though 🤣

Careful what you wish for... Wilkie's smoking Geritol.

[reesebobby 5,663]

17 minutes ago, PAChiefsFan79 said:

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/4/2/18291472/new-chiefs-defensive-end-emmanuel-ogbah-brings-length-leverage-and-strength-to-the-table

 

I was saying this before in other threads. This defense is not built on individual talent winning matchups. This defense is about using talent to scheme pressure. Twists, stunts, etc... Chiefs don't need studs, they need capable players that can execute the defensive plans.

When I think of Spags' better defenses, what seems to stand out are athletic defensive ends.  Jason Pierre Paul, Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, Michael Strahan.  They got a lot of pressure with down linemen.  Physically, KPass seems to be in that mold.  Whether he has that kind of football in him remains to be seen.  There are a lot of similarities between KPass and Umenyiora to me. 

[Calichief 3,024]

Hunt wouldn’t have made a difference. Damien Williams played big.

[Mloe68 1,521]

2 hours ago, Troyofoc said:

Sorry guys maybe I'm not coming across how I want. No doubt I like this trade, couldn't stand murry. And I feel we can maybe get something out of the new guy, just feel he has been a bust for the browns to date which lead them to trade him.

I get it. There's different levels of busts which I think which is what the debate was about initially. But he no doubt has been a dissapointment for them and we likewise need to be realistic about expectation. Hopeful value trade I guess. 

[kkuenn 3,613]

18 minutes ago, Calichief said:

Hunt wouldn’t have made a difference. Damien Williams played big.

Call me crazy, but I think Hunt gets more than 30 yards rushing for the game.

[Mloe68 1,521]

21 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Call me crazy, but I think Hunt gets more than 30 yards rushing for the game.

Probably so. But in the Titans playoff loss last year he had 11 carries for 40 yards. We DEFINITELY downgraded overall with Williams. My point though is that over the last six games our running back position was still top 5 in total productivity.  Definite trend in AFC playoffs was run the ball better to win.  We only had 10 carries from RBs vs 47 from the Patriots after having a 30 to 12 advantage over the Colts. So Williams didn't get much of a chance where he had a dominant divisional game. Maybe we commit more to run in the first half but I doubt it. I think Andy figured the Patriots defense out and Mahomes was basically unstoppable going to his backup options. 

 

[Dan4pres 125]

Dorsey is not an idiot. He traded an underperforming player with talent and got one back. We got more potential upside, in my opinion but we weren’t going to get one of their best players for a guy like Murray. Like people have been saying, trading Murray and creating an opening for one of the other Safties is a win regardless of how well Ogbah plays. 

[Biggjliv4 1,292]

I guess what I'm not a fan of is that we were a play or two from the SB so my thinking is you go all in this year.  Fire Sutton, but bring in another 3-4 guy who is creative and unpredictable then draft heavy on DB positions.  See if scheme and a decent safety and corner gets you there. Instead we gut our one position of defensive strength and completely change schemes leaving a ton of question marks that one draft won't solve.

We are relevant every year with Pat, but remind me how many SB does Aaron Rogers have? One, and hes an elite QB across the board. SB windows are indeed short, especially with keeping the skill players we have for one or 2 more years hopefully and keeping Pat healthy.

Change was needed indeed, but I fear we cost us some years with this approach and I'm not sold on Spags, but I do like his assistants.  Time will tell and I'll cheer until the day I die. Thank goodness for Pat/Red combo, couldn't ask for more there. Just my opinions, right or wrong. 

[Calichief 3,024]

4 hours ago, kkuenn said:

Call me crazy, but I think Hunt gets more than 30 yards rushing for the game.

How many carries did he have?

how many targets?

[kkuenn 3,613]

17 minutes ago, Calichief said:

How many carries did he have?

how many targets?

10 carries but I think we run it more with Hunt and another dangerous weapon to take in account for. Only 8 targets with 5 receptions.

[Mloe68 1,521]

19 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

10 carries but I think we run it more with Hunt and another dangerous weapon to take in account for. Only 8 targets with 5 receptions.

Andy knows how to make about any RB productive. Williams exceeded that but I’m sure the Mahomes impact was a big part of that.  But you are correct Hunt was a guy who created plays beyond what was drawn up. The type of running back Andy’s offenses thrive around. Having a great RB with this QB makes us almost unstoppable. So yeah, we probably beat NE. 

[Marleydawg 60]

2 hours ago, kkuenn said:

10 carries but I think we run it more with Hunt and another dangerous weapon to take in account for. Only 8 targets with 5 receptions.

IMO, what we missed most about Hunt was his attitude.  He was just flat out tough and he set the tone.  He was a closer.  I don't think we drop the SD game if we have Hunt, either...  Williams is a fine RB, but he's not going to grind out tough yards consistently like Hunt did.

 

Bottom line: KC was 9-2 with him and 4-3 without.