Rolling Defense (Week 9 updated)

[dhitter 1,424]

On 9/30/2019 at 8:08 PM, azchief21 said:

We can talk about learning the new system but watch the horrible fundamentals. Heads down lunging at ball carriers, horrible pursuit angles, opposing WRs wandering free in zone coverage, no gap fills, terrible ball awareness, no wrapping up.

This is how I see it. We can talk a lot about who isn't living up to expectations but the truth is there is enough blame to spread around. I like Thornhill a lot. But he hasn't been the ballhawking safety a lot of folks projected him to be. He also misses a lot of tackles up at the line of scrimmage. Either trying to tackle guys up around the shoulders which ain't gonna cut it or swiping at ankles and whiffing. Hitchens is a "make a play every 20 snaps" kinda guy. If that's what you are looking for have at it. A lot of problems are just plain old fundamentals. Bad tackling, poor angles, blown gap assignments, missed coverage assignments. Is Spags really getting the most out of this defense? If the answer is yes than heaven help us.

[Mloe68 1,521]

On 10/1/2019 at 2:42 PM, liquidfriend said:

After getting a good look, I think I see who's the weakest link on Defense.

It's not Jones, Clark, Hitchens or any of the linebackers or DL honestly.  Or even Thornhill.  IMO it's Kendall Fuller and ghe fact nearly 83% of passes thrown his way are completed seems to back it up.

He's doing incredibly terrible in zone coverage.

Our corners are having an awful time locating the ball (especially Fuller and Ward). Passes that should be 80-20 in our favor to get a favorable result are flipping into an advantage for the offense. And good QBs will throw those all day until we get it fixed. 

[reesebobby 5,662]

6 minutes ago, jetlord said:

So why has special teams gone down the tubes so quickly?  Is it lack of a big return?  Penalties on every punt?  Poor decisions on bringing the ball out?  Poor coverage?  If DAT was brought back because he would be a tiger on ST, the Chiefs made a big mistake.  Maybe they miss Kemp and Harris. 

They miss Tyreek in the return game for one thing.  He had the return for a touchdown in week one last year.  He generally makes good decisions and is really missed. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

Just now, dhitter said:

This is how I see it. We can talk a lot about who isn't living up to expectations but the truth is there is enough blame to spread around. I like Thornhill a lot. But he hasn't been the ballhawking safety a lot of folks projected him to be. He also misses a lot of tackles up at the line of scrimmage. Either trying to tackle guys up around the shoulders which ain't gonna cut it or swiping at ankles and whiffing. Hitchens is a "make a play every 20 snaps" kinda guy. If that's what you are looking for have at it. A lot of problems are just plain old fundamentals. Bad tackling, poor angles, missed coverage assignments. Is Spags really getting the most out of this defense? If the answer is yes than heaven help us.

It’s too early to make any hard core evaluations about this defense and especially a rookie.  As Tim Grunhard said this week he sees a group still thinking about where they are supposed be instead of just flying to football and making plays.  

[jetlord 10,209]

1 minute ago, reesebobby said:

They miss Tyreek in the return game for one thing.  He had the return for a touchdown in week one last year.  He generally makes good decisions and is really missed. 

With Hill the #1 WR and also injured, Hardman is the next man up.  Didn't he have a couple of good returns that were called back by the normal block in the back calls?

[dhitter 1,424]

1 minute ago, Mloe68 said:

It’s too early to make any hard core evaluations about this defense and especially a rookie.  As Tim Grunhard said this week he sees a group still thinking about where they are supposed be instead of just flying to football and making plays.  

And yet one of the mantras I kept hearing going into the season was how Spags defense was simplified and allowed players to do that very thing.

If I say the defense has not been good...is that a hard core evaluation? Then so be it. A lot of folks like to point to scoring vs. yards. And I agree points allowed are more important. But there are so many things that can skew even that simple stat. Several posters have said Chiefs were 24th in points allowed last year. 1st of all that isn't a great stat. Secondly, we were 29th going into the Raiders game. Crappy, nothing to play for Raiders get 3 points. We go from 29th to 24th and suddenly we are respectable? I'm laughing and crying at the same time. And lo and behold which crappy team scored the least amount of points so far this year....the dysfunctional Raiders.

Why doesn't someone just come out and say it....as long as we can outscore the other guy I don't care how bad the defense looks or how many points we give up. The problem is that the playoffs are such a different animal. All it it takes is a team to scheme in such a way that they get more points and it's on to next year.

The defense has got to get good enough that they can hold their own against at least decent teams. So far I'm not seeing it.

[reesebobby 5,662]

18 minutes ago, jetlord said:

With Hill the #1 WR and also injured, Hardman is the next man up.  Didn't he have a couple of good returns that were called back by the normal block in the back calls?

I understand the next man up thing.  And yes we have had a lot of penalties.  But still you can't lose the best return man in the NFL since Devin Hester and not have a negative effect on special teams. 

[liquidfriend 1,151]

33 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

Our corners are having an awful time locating the ball (especially Fuller and Ward). Passes that should be 80-20 in our favor to get a favorable result are flipping into an advantage for the offense. And good QBs will throw those all day until we get it fixed. 

Some of it is that, some of it is just bad luck because receivers seem to get the perfect placement on him in particular and part of it is just the receivers simply aren't playing the ball.

[Mloe68 1,521]

1 hour ago, dhitter said:

And yet one of the mantras I kept hearing going into the season was how Spags defense was simplified and allowed players to do that very thing.

If I say the defense has not been good...is that a hard core evaluation? Then so be it. A lot of folks like to point to scoring vs. yards. And I agree points allowed are more important. But there are so many things that can skew even that simple stat. Several posters have said Chiefs were 24th in points allowed last year. 1st of all that isn't a great stat. Secondly, we were 29th going into the Raiders game. Crappy, nothing to play for Raiders get 3 points. We go from 29th to 24th and suddenly we are respectable? I'm laughing and crying at the same time. And lo and behold which crappy team scored the least amount of points so far this year....the dysfunctional Raiders.

Why doesn't someone just come out and say it....as long as we can outscore the other guy I don't care how bad the defense looks or how many points we give up. The problem is that the playoffs are such a different animal. All it it takes is a team to scheme in such a way that they get more points and it's on to next year.

The defense has got to get good enough that they can hold their own against at least decent teams. So far I'm not seeing it.

Learning a new system so that you can play instinctively takes time. Its ridiculous in any situation to suggest otherwise. I mean our entire coverage scheme is different. Spags is also just barely broaching his bag of blitzes as he knows they need to get the basics down first. I've heard or read several people who evaluate film talk about the team playing hard but slow in reacting to situations. When the whole thing slows down for the defense we will know what we really have. We simply do not through only 4 weeks. That's my point. 

That said there are some trends that are either troubling or encouraging. Troubling is the reality Ward and Fuller are struggling with zone concepts and worse they can't seem to locate the ball if their life depended on it. Troubling is that Ben Neiman has already replaced Daron Lee on coverage downs. Encouraging that we had 8 TFL and 4 sacks against a group that hadn't given up any. Spags scheme and even with a limited use of blitzes is already showing more imagination than we had in years under Sutton. This defense has flashed improvement but is nowhere near where we need it. We will see if that happens. This is really about January and 2020.  

[Mloe68 1,521]

45 minutes ago, jetlord said:

With Hill the #1 WR and also injured, Hardman is the next man up.  Didn't he have a couple of good returns that were called back by the normal block in the back calls?

Hardman is SO raw still as a route runner. I think initially they just wanted him to give the offense the speed to keep defenses honest if Tyreek was out. And he certainly does that. He also didn't come in as the elite kick returner Tyreek was from day one either. Give Dave Toub some time with him. I think he will crack one this year. Hardman has a ton of potential but probably got thrown to the wolves a little earlier than they would normally do. But I'd say he's responded pretty well overall. 

[dhitter 1,424]

2 hours ago, Mloe68 said:

Learning a new system so that you can play instinctively takes time. Its ridiculous in any situation to suggest otherwise. I mean our entire coverage scheme is different. Spags is also just barely broaching his bag of blitzes as he knows they need to get the basics down first. I've heard or read several people who evaluate film talk about the team playing hard but slow in reacting to situations. When the whole thing slows down for the defense we will know what we really have. We simply do not through only 4 weeks. That's my point. 

That said there are some trends that are either troubling or encouraging. Troubling is the reality Ward and Fuller are struggling with zone concepts and worse they can't seem to locate the ball if their life depended on it. Troubling is that Ben Neiman has already replaced Daron Lee on coverage downs. Encouraging that we had 8 TFL and 4 sacks against a group that hadn't given up any. Spags scheme and even with a limited use of blitzes is already showing more imagination than we had in years under Sutton. This defense has flashed improvement but is nowhere near where we need it. We will see if that happens. This is really about January and 2020.  

Not disagreeing with you Mloe. Some valid points there. My problem is they have had all offseason, training camp, preseason and 4 games to get the basics down. And they are still getting gashed on the ground. We are currently 32nd in YPC by opposing teams. Spin it anyway you want but that is terrible and should be unacceptable. Spags needs more than a quarter season I get it. But his rep is a mixed bag and we completely overhauled not just the scheme but the personnel. Seeing poor tackles, bad angles, lack of ball awareness....has nothing to do with scheme. Yes there are some good things. We had good things last year like leading the league in sacks. Where did it get us? I plan to come back here at the midway point and either reaffirm my points or eat crow. I am praying I eat crow.

[Mloe68 1,521]

21 minutes ago, dhitter said:

Not disagreeing with you Mloe. Some valid points there. My problem is they have had all offseason, training camp, preseason and 4 games to get the basics down. 

This just isn't true because the CBA rules allow almost zero contact all offseason. Spags continually said he wouldn't know what he really had until they could start hitting. And recently he said he's just trying to figure out what everyone does well and what they don't. Its truly a process. And then because of injuries the group got almost zero time together until opening day. That includes a new system and SEVEN new starters. I see Spags as a guy who's had two legit chances as a DC to rebuild a terrible defense. In both cases he inherited a bottom 5 defense and in both case he had a top 5 defense in year two including one that knocked off on the best offenses all time in the Super Bowl.

All that said and I know this isn't apples to apples but I watch a ton of Big 12 football. And OU was the college football version of the Chiefs last year. In fact their defense may have been worse. They go out and hire Alex Grinch the DC from Ohio State and I can already see some tangible improvement. But again they get to hit A TON more in college than in an NFL offseason. So I'd expect after another month to see some real tangible and not just flashed improvement here too and hold Spags/Veach accountable for that. But ultimately this year they will be judged by how the D does in January. That's what matters in 2019. I expect a clearly better defense from day one next year. 

[kkuenn 3,597]

Funny because the first couple games I was seeing some good tackling and angles. Hell many of us commented on how they seem to have the basics down.

 

The last couple it seems to have done a complete 180. Spags was hands on, giving pointers in practice, taking players aside etc. He needs to be nacknon them about doing the basics well and those missed tackles will become short gains or tackles for losses.

 

Spags needs to identify and work on what is going wrong. Players need to do their job and a lot of this should already be in place

 Get this down and the rest of tweaking it will come more easily. You can be great at knowing the system but if you cant fill the gap and tackle it wont matter. If you cant turn your head and see the passed ball it will not matter. Little things like this.

 

[SEMO 6,811]

4 hours ago, jetlord said:

So why has special teams gone down the tubes so quickly?  Is it lack of a big return?  Penalties on every punt?  Poor decisions on bringing the ball out?  Poor coverage?  If DAT was brought back because he would be a tiger on ST, the Chiefs made a big mistake.  Maybe they miss Kemp and Harris. 

Yes

[SEMO 6,811]

3 hours ago, Mloe68 said:

Hardman is SO raw still as a route runner. I think initially they just wanted him to give the offense the speed to keep defenses honest if Tyreek was out. And he certainly does that. He also didn't come in as the elite kick returner Tyreek was from day one either. Give Dave Toub some time with him. I think he will crack one this year. Hardman has a ton of potential but probably got thrown to the wolves a little earlier than they would normally do. But I'd say he's responded pretty well overall. 

He has no problem running a post route.  That’s all he needs to do for now.

[jetlord 10,209]

6 hours ago, Mloe68 said:

Hardman is SO raw still as a route runner. I think initially they just wanted him to give the offense the speed to keep defenses honest if Tyreek was out. And he certainly does that. He also didn't come in as the elite kick returner Tyreek was from day one either. Give Dave Toub some time with him. I think he will crack one this year. Hardman has a ton of potential but probably got thrown to the wolves a little earlier than they would normally do. But I'd say he's responded pretty well overall. 

Yeah, but I was referring only to special teams. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

Jason LaConfora article says Elway getting very close to signing off on fire sale and actually has the Chiefs as one of the teams interested., Begs the question if Elway would actually be interested in trading with us. Chris Harris would be a clear target if so. 
 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/broncos-moving-closer-to-fire-sale-and-even-von-miller-could-be-moved-before-deadline/amp/?u=https-3A

[kkuenn 3,597]

2 hours ago, Mloe68 said:

Jason LaConfora article says Elway getting very close to signing off on fire sale and actually has the Chiefs as one of the teams interested., Begs the question if Elway would actually be interested in trading with us. Chris Harris would be a clear target if so. 
 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/broncos-moving-closer-to-fire-sale-and-even-von-miller-could-be-moved-before-deadline/amp/?u=https-3A

Harris is probably the only one we would be after. We are set at DE so no Wolfe needed. The only other one we could go after is Von Miller, who I doubt they would want to get rid of to a divisional rival. Would be a hell of a deal to get a LB and CB for our defense though!

[FANATIC 852]

3 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Harris is probably the only one we would be after. We are set at DE so no Wolfe needed. The only other one we could go after is Von Miller, who I doubt they would want to get rid of to a divisional rival. Would be a hell of a deal to get a LB and CB for our defense though!

Check the grades. Set........ End is not so special so far. 

[kkuenn 3,597]

Just now, FANATIC said:

Check the grades. Set........ End is not so special so far. 

Ogbah, Okafor, Clark, Kpass.... grades or not I think they are set pretty well to be able to pass on giving up picks for Wolf. I now 2 of them are 1 year deals but if they play out and do well as we go along, then we have a chance to resign them too and not give up picks. Just the way I am looking at it from my opinion.

[FANATIC 852]

5 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Ogbah, Okafor, Clark, Kpass.... grades or not I think they are set pretty well to be able to pass on giving up picks for Wolf. I now 2 of them are 1 year deals but if they play out and do well as we go along, then we have a chance to resign them too and not give up picks. Just the way I am looking at it from my opinion.

I see you point. This defense is 31st against the run. Somebody sucks.

[kkuenn 3,597]

9 minutes ago, FANATIC said:

I see you point. This defense is 31st against the run. Somebody sucks.

Right now i see the de setting the edge. Seems our interior line is getting gashed and that is more so the LB not making a tackle or filling the gaps. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

20 minutes ago, FANATIC said:

Check the grades. Set........ End is not so special so far. 

I still like our rotation there and think it has some very tangible upside. I don't see that at corner where we've got a bunch of journeymen types. I'm not opposed to a LB though!

[Mloe68 1,521]

2 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Right now i see the de setting the edge. Seems our interior line is getting gashed and that is more so the LB not making a tackle or filling the gaps. 

Clark is doing a great job of setting the edge on his side. As Tim Grunhard said in his film review we are indeed getting gashed inside with players not keeping their GAP responsiblity. When they do, we are solid. That is both encouraging and discouraging at the same time to me. LOL

[FANATIC 852]

5 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Right now i see the de setting the edge. Seems our interior line is getting gashed and that is more so the LB not making a tackle or filling the gaps. 

Outside run defense

The Chiefs have had their struggles against outside runs this year, and the challenge will be significant this week against the Colts, especially if Marlon Mack plays. Both Mack and Nyheim Hines could present issues for the run defense on stretch plays. The Colts have one of the best offensive lines in football. The Chiefs’ front will have its work cut out for them, and the linebackers will have to play gap sound from sideline to sideline.