Brett Veach should be fired

[Mloe68 1,521]

15 minutes ago, FANATIC said:

Dream On. That Clark deal is a nightmare that will haunt KC for years. Two players could have been added or kept for the 20 million per year, see Houston , and KC would still have their #1 & #2 draft picks. Any GM can acquire players if you are willing to completely overpay...see Hitchens & Watkins. Chiefs were bidding against themselves.

You tell me which late first or late second round pick is going to be more impactful than the Clark we saw in Seattle the last 5 years? So it's indeed totally a money issue. But if we aren't having CAP issues what difference does it make?

[sith13 1,746]

1 minute ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

What are the high priority positions we should be spending money on? Are you saying we should have signed a CB instead of a safety? It was an awful free agent class for CB, and safety was deep. We got one of the best ones out there and Veach structured his deal so we can get out of it after 3 seasons. You know damn well safety was a priority after how bad ours were last season.

The Watkins contract? You are mad he went out and got his young QB a weapon of his caliber? Also structured the deal so we can get out after 3 years.

The Hitchens deal? After losing DJ it was imperative that we got a playmaking ILB. No one would have ever guessed he would be this bad. His game tape in Dallas was very impressive.

Are you saying we should have spent more on our offensive line? I agree with that, but our defense was atrocious and Veach has committed a lot of his resources to trying to fix that side of the ball. 

I mean if he spent a bunch of money on offensive lineman instead , or whatever positions you think are the priorities, and those players dont pan out then people would be bitching that he didnt address safety or WR. 

There isnt 1 player he has targeted that didnt make sense as an acquisition at the time. He has traded up for some head scratchers in the draft. Speaks. Nnadi, and Saunders all seem to be reaches for project players. And I have agreed with you that first draft looks really bad.

It's a mixed bag as far as results go with his personnel decisions. But overall the team has been really successful on his watch. If we were losing it would be different.

 

This is not a video game where we can look at numbers and predict. A GM is the one that has to know whether a guy will work in the system or not. Everyone whiffs on a few but so many just diminishes the GM as a whole. Pretty much any guy on here could ask Reid what position we needed and go ahead to find someone in FA or draft, scouting and such are the main things to consider. 

Watkins was a bad contract to begin with, you simply don't pay guys with such injury history big money. That's like GM 101. It's not like he was good for much prior to coming here either, had 1000 yards and 10 TDs in two seasons combined. Those are the guys you bring in on a bargain mid-level deals. 

HB is no better for a GM either. The guy has 3 ACL + 2 shoulder surgeries in his career. Yet we make him one of the highest paid Safety in the league, as if we didn't just suffer the Eric Berry situation. I like the emphasis on Safety, it's the scouting Veach seems to be bad at, I like Thornhill so far and hopefully he'll get better over time and become a complete player.

It's a reiteration but I consider the top money at pure pass rushers a waste as well. You basically tie up a lot of resources on a single guy who can simply be stopped by two street FAs in today's NFL. And if there's an injury the whole aspect of the team is gone. Teams don't win SBs while paying a single pass rusher top money.

WR is simply a luxury position now. Just find a few decent guys and let your QB have some time with them and you are done with all the defensive restrictions due to penalties. We have a late round pick and an undrafted guy doing just as well as our multiple-pick 2nd round guy.

The offensive rule is simple, find an elite QB (very tough to do) and use offensive resources on protecting him. Then you can worry about luxury picks like WR or RB as one injury to your QB means the whole team going down unlike any other position on the roster.

In terms of positions Veach seems to be going for what the fans want but he (and his staff) doesn't seem to be good at analyzing those guys which is entirely on him. In the mean time pretty much any other GM seems to get the better of him in draft trades and players seem to get a lot of guarantees without actually performing at that level in their careers. We enter a draft with major needs at 2 starting OL positions and a more important backup OT then end up giving up 2 high picks for what looks to be our #4 or #5 WR. Even for the #2 WR that would be a huge mistake. 

I like the Ogbah trade as well as the Okafor signing. Pretty much the entire 2018 draft looks terrible and this year doesn't seem to be any better with Thornhill being the only contributor. Overall I think Veach and his staff are very questionable at scouting and I don't see any contracts that we can consider to be a bargain. Paying top money to risky guys isn't a good move.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

14 minutes ago, sith13 said:

This is not a video game where we can look at numbers and predict. A GM is the one that has to know whether a guy will work in the system or not. Everyone whiffs on a few but so many just diminishes the GM as a whole. Pretty much any guy on here could ask Reid what position we needed and go ahead to find someone in FA or draft, scouting and such are the main things to consider. 

Watkins was a bad contract to begin with, you simply don't pay guys with such injury history big money. That's like GM 101. It's not like he was good for much prior to coming here either, had 1000 yards and 10 TDs in two seasons combined. Those are the guys you bring in on a bargain mid-level deals. 

HB is no better for a GM either. The guy has 3 ACL + 2 shoulder surgeries in his career. Yet we make him one of the highest paid Safety in the league, as if we didn't just suffer the Eric Berry situation. I like the emphasis on Safety, it's the scouting Veach seems to be bad at, I like Thornhill so far and hopefully he'll get better over time and become a complete player.

It's a reiteration but I consider the top money at pure pass rushers a waste as well. You basically tie up a lot of resources on a single guy who can simply be stopped by two street FAs in today's NFL. And if there's an injury the whole aspect of the team is gone. Teams don't win SBs while paying a single pass rusher top money.

WR is simply a luxury position now. Just find a few decent guys and let your QB have some time with them and you are done with all the defensive restrictions due to penalties. We have a late round pick and an undrafted guy doing just as well as our multiple-pick 2nd round guy.

The offensive rule is simple, find an elite QB (very tough to do) and use offensive resources on protecting him. Then you can worry about luxury picks like WR or RB as one injury to your QB means the whole team going down unlike any other position on the roster.

In terms of positions Veach seems to be going for what the fans want but he (and his staff) doesn't seem to be good at analyzing those guys which is entirely on him. In the mean time pretty much any other GM seems to get the better of him in draft trades and players seem to get a lot of guarantees without actually performing at that level in their careers. We enter a draft with major needs at 2 starting OL positions and a more important backup OT then end up giving up 2 high picks for what looks to be our #4 or #5 WR. Even for the #2 WR that would be a huge mistake. 

I like the Ogbah trade as well as the Okafor signing. Pretty much the entire 2018 draft looks terrible and this year doesn't seem to be any better with Thornhill being the only contributor. Overall I think Veach and his staff are very questionable at scouting and I don't see any contracts that we can consider to be a bargain. Paying top money to risky guys isn't a good move.

Well Hardman WILL be our number 2 WR, and likely next year. Plus that was insurance because of the Hill situation. Saunders is starting at DT as of right now, so that pick looks better than it did on draft day based on pure need. I think Darwin Thompson has some real upside, so I disagree on this draft not being any better than last. 

The other thing to consider is what the market dictates. HB and Watkins were given contracts you dont agree with. That's fine. But is that what Veach had to pay not to get outbid? Would you rather NOT have those guys? 

The Ford, Clark, and Peter's trades...I agree you could argue we lost all of them. But again, how do we know that's not what he had to pay, or that was the best return he could get in those cases? It's easy for us to second guess. We dont know what other GMs are saying on the phone when we are shopping players. And he killed it with the Alex Smith trade. Great return.

Overall I think a lot of people would feel better about Veach if this defense didnt still look awful. And it is a problem. But its early and we're still winning. Hopefully the unit will gel and we can make a run at NE.

[sith13 1,746]

Just now, Iluvhouse24 said:

Well Hardman WILL be our number 2 WR, and likely next year. Plus that was insurance because of the Hill situation. Saunders is starting at DT as of right now, so that pick looks better than it did on draft day based on pure need. I think Darwin Thompson has some real upside, so I disagree on this draft not being any better than last. 

The other thing to consider is what the market dictates. HB and Watkins were given contracts you dont agree with. That's fine. But is that what Veach had to pay not to get outbid? Would you rather NOT have those guys? 

The Ford, Clark, and Peter's trades...I agree you could argue we lost all of them. But again, how do we know that's not what he had to pay, or that was the best return he could get in those cases? It's easy for us to second guess. We dont know what other GMs are saying on the phone when we are shopping players. And he killed it with the Alex Smith trade. Great return.

Overall I think a lot of people would feel better about Veach if this defense didnt still look awful. And it is a problem. But its early and we're still winning. Hopefully the unit will gel and we can make a run at NE.

Actually I would probably be more comfortable with a defense like this as long as we can keep Mahomes upright. Two injuries on the same ankle within 5 games is too scary. However the way he's trying to fix the needs isn't showing me anything to be hopeful of going forward. He seems to be going for the flashy guys like WRs or pass rushers like most fans would rather than the fundamental guys so far. 

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

7 minutes ago, sith13 said:

Actually I would probably be more comfortable with a defense like this as long as we can keep Mahomes upright. Two injuries on the same ankle within 5 games is too scary. However the way he's trying to fix the needs isn't showing me anything to be hopeful of going forward. He seems to be going for the flashy guys like WRs or pass rushers like most fans would rather than the fundamental guys so far. 

It's becoming obvious that not dedicating more resources to our interior line is hurting us. Reiter played pretty well last year, and I think they were encouraged by it. They thought w him and Allegretti theyd be fine. They were wrong. And weve all been banging this LG drum for yrs now. Wylie would be great as a swing backup. But he is very average as a starter.

There are too many holes and not enough high draft picks to fill them going forward. So I'm not disagreeing with you. But playing better defense and winning divisions seems to have a way of quieting concerns. 

[FANATIC 852]

55 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

You tell me which late first or late second round pick is going to be more impactful than the Clark we saw in Seattle the last 5 years? So it's indeed totally a money issue. But if we aren't having CAP issues what difference does it make?

First of all Cap is always an issue. Basic economics 101. His contract could go to Jones. Your cap comments have no basis in reality. 

Clark has not been a quality or anything near an elite player. Not even close. KC defense is not Seattles defense.  Clark was a role player there surrounded by talent vs surrounded by crap in KC. Forget the picks for a moment. The money KC gave Clark could have added at least two decent free agents. Maybe oline. Maybe CB. Maybe kept Houston and added another player. Lots of really good free agents available for 10 million per year that would be as average as Clark is. . The draft picks just add insult to injury. 

Like I said. Dream on. Fantasy is a good place to be.

[Mloe68 1,521]

5 minutes ago, FANATIC said:

First of all Cap is always an issue. Basic economics 101. His contract could go to Jones. Your cap comments have no basis in reality. 

Clark has not been a quality or anything near an elite player. Not even close. KC defense is not Seattles defense.  Clark was a role player there surrounded by talent vs surrounded by crap in KC. Forget the picks for a moment. The money KC gave Clark could have added at least two decent free agents. Maybe oline. Maybe CB. Maybe kept Houston and added another player. Lots of really good free agents available for 10 million per year that would be as average as Clark is. . The draft picks just add insult to injury. 

Like I said. Dream on. Fantasy is a good place to be.

Just a role players? Not even a quality player? Yeah right   

Through the regular season in 2018, Seattle recorded pressure on just 31.5% of the opponent’s dropbacks, tied for 23rd in the NFL. And Clark, tallied a whopping 24.6% of his team’s total pressures, the fifth-highest market share of any defender in the NFL in 2018. Over his last three seasons Clark has been a stalwart on the Seahawks defensive line averaging 11 sacks, 20 QB hits, 3 forced fumbles and grading out as a plus defender ve the run   

 

[liquidfriend 1,151]

Smh

Hardman wasn't Tyreek Hill insurance.  They were shopping WRs hard well before that shit ever came out.

They were shopping because they knew they were getting rid of a WR in 2020.  No matter what.

That Colts game was a clear example why.  They want experienced receivers playing to avoid what happened, hence why they were already aggressively looking at them all Winter long.

 

The only thing a Tyreek Hill ban would have done would of been the decision of which WR to keep.

[dksww 484]

People are making good points but IMO the shortcomings on defense stem from trading up for project players like KPass and Speaks.  It's taken 3 seasons for KPass to get any kind of significant playing time so the jury is still out on him.  Speaks was traded up for and put into a position he didn't even play and is now injured for the year so we have to wait another 2 seasons before we know anything.

The other picks are alot of project guys like Saunders, O'Daniel and Watts.  We're investing round 1-4 draft picks on guys that aren't NFL ready players.  O'Daniel can't even get on the field. He's a 3rd round pick and with Hitchens out they have to go to Ben Niemann who was undrafted. 

They haven't drafted CBs at all really.  They used a 6th round pick the past 2 years on guys that can't play, either.  One is already gone.

Maybe a solution is avoiding paying Chris Jones huge money and trading him for picks and then trading out of our 1st round pick for more picks as well.

We need to start hitting on players in the draft.  It's killing us depth wise and on defense we don't have any quality starters that came from the draft.

I appreciate how aggressive Veach is in the draft and free agency, but the draft philosophy hasn't worked and they need to do it differently next year.

[FANATIC 852]

11 minutes ago, dksww said:

People are making good points but IMO the shortcomings on defense stem from trading up for project players like KPass and Speaks.  It's taken 3 seasons for KPass to get any kind of significant playing time so the jury is still out on him.  Speaks was traded up for and put into a position he didn't even play and is now injured for the year so we have to wait another 2 seasons before we know anything.

The other picks are alot of project guys like Saunders, O'Daniel and Watts.  We're investing round 1-4 draft picks on guys that aren't NFL ready players.  O'Daniel can't even get on the field. He's a 3rd round pick and with Hitchens out they have to go to Ben Niemann who was undrafted. 

They haven't drafted CBs at all really.  They used a 6th round pick the past 2 years on guys that can't play, either.  One is already gone.

Maybe a solution is avoiding paying Chris Jones huge money and trading him for picks and then trading out of our 1st round pick for more picks as well.

We need to start hitting on players in the draft.  It's killing us depth wise and on defense we don't have any quality starters that came from the draft.

I appreciate how aggressive Veach is in the draft and free agency, but the draft philosophy hasn't worked and they need to do it differently next year.

BINGO 

[Mloe68 1,521]

19 minutes ago, liquidfriend said:

Smh

Hardman wasn't Tyreek Hill insurance.  They were shopping WRs hard well before that shit ever came out.

They were shopping because they knew they were getting rid of a WR in 2020.  No matter what.

That Colts game was a clear example why.  They want experienced receivers playing to avoid what happened, hence why they were already aggressively looking at them all Winter long.

 

The only thing a Tyreek Hill ban would have done would of been the decision of which WR to keep.

Agree. We already had let our #3 WR walk. Robinson's contract was up this year. And Watkins (who was the real guy brought in to protect against something happening to Tyreek) was never going to see that 20 million next season. Not to mention Tyreek not being under contract either. We needed a rookie to get a year in this complicated system to be able to hope to rely on him as a starter in 2020 IMO. If Tyreek's deal ended poorly believe the move would have been to rework Watkins deal and role with he and Hardman. But ideally Veach wanted to resign Tyreek and role with he and Hardman as the 1-2 next year. A nice balance of contracts especially with the cheaper deal Veach got from Tyreek. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

27 minutes ago, dksww said:

People are making good points but IMO the shortcomings on defense stem from trading up for project players like KPass and Speaks.  It's taken 3 seasons for KPass to get any kind of significant playing time so the jury is still out on him.  Speaks was traded up for and put into a position he didn't even play and is now injured for the year so we have to wait another 2 seasons before we know anything.

The other picks are alot of project guys like Saunders, O'Daniel and Watts.  We're investing round 1-4 draft picks on guys that aren't NFL ready players.  O'Daniel can't even get on the field. He's a 3rd round pick and with Hitchens out they have to go to Ben Niemann who was undrafted. 

They haven't drafted CBs at all really.  They used a 6th round pick the past 2 years on guys that can't play, either.  One is already gone.

Maybe a solution is avoiding paying Chris Jones huge money and trading him for picks and then trading out of our 1st round pick for more picks as well.

We need to start hitting on players in the draft.  It's killing us depth wise and on defense we don't have any quality starters that came from the draft.

I appreciate how aggressive Veach is in the draft and free agency, but the draft philosophy hasn't worked and they need to do it differently next year.

I don't disagree with this at all. It's okay to take a developmental player in round 2 every once is a while. Not back to back seasons. That was something Veach clearly learned from Dorsey. O Daniel wasn't really a project though as he was an elite LB in college that was undersized and its proving too much in the NFL. I'm okay with Saunders and where he was drafted unlike Speaks and KPass. We haven't invested any more than band aids at CB. And in fairness to him inheriting the Peters mess was a mess. Getting that position fixed between now and 2020 will be a huge make or break deal for Veach and the overall defensive rebuild.

Veach looks like he simply overrated Hitchens as he was a one dimensional guy next to an elite LB that helped lessen his load. Here he is supposed to be the catalyst of the group.  Honey Badger and Clark are really good proven players and I expect we will see that as time goes on. 

[artsy 1,137]

2 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

I don't disagree with this at all. It's okay to take a developmental player in round 2 every once is a while. Not back to back seasons. That was something Veach clearly learned from Dorsey. O Daniel wasn't really a project though as he was an elite LB in college that was undersized and its proving too much in the NFL. I'm okay with Saunders and where he was drafted unlike Speaks and KPass. We haven't invested any more than band aids at CB. Getting that fixed between now and 2020 will be a huge make or break deal for Veach and the overall defensive rebuild. Veach looks like he simply overrated Hitchens as he was a one dimensional guy next to an elite LB that helped lessen his load. Here he is supposed to be the catalyst of the group.  Honey Badger and Clark are really good proven players and I expect we will see that as time goes on. 

Yea, Veech the "Reach". That's his new nickname for me.

I think his ego maybe a little in his way....Taking developmental guys early in the draft because he's so much smarter that everyone else.

He's also "reaching" for players of need, versus best on the board. (With the exception of a CB) I'm personally gonna give him one more draft before I write him off.

[Mloe68 1,521]

3 minutes ago, artsy said:

Yea, Veech the "Reach". That's his new nickname for me.

I think his ego maybe a little in his way....Taking developmental guys early in the draft because he's so much smarter that everyone else.

He's also "reaching" for players of need, versus best on the board. (With the exception of a CB) I'm personally gonna give him one more draft before I write him off.

I don't think its ego personally but instead he uses that athletic meter to judge players on draft day over proven production. And I think he uses his college evaluations to perhaps overrate failing bargains on other teams that he thinks good coaching can turn around. Its a learning curve. I like this draft class quite a bit. We will see. On the other hand he's picked off some nice bargain contributors like Butker, Williams, Obgah and Reiter. In the end it's going to be the high dollar free agents and day 1-2 of the draft he will be make or break his tenure here on. 

[reesebobby 5,662]

3 hours ago, Mloe68 said:

We essentially traded Dee Ford And the 30th pick for Frank Clark. The contracts the two got are very similar.  It’s hardly outrageous for the player Veach thinks he got.  A all around very good player (not just a pass rusher), consistently productive, leader off the field and tone setter on it.  Now reality is for whatever reason we’ve only seen flashes of it thru 5 games.  Too early though to evaluate this correctly. 
 

He was tied for 7th in the NFL last year in sacks.  He's been pretty consistently around 10 sacks per year.  Last year was Dee Ford's highest sack total ever and he tied Frank Clark.  I'm not sure what the problem has been this year, but he's historically been a really good pass rusher. 

[kkuenn 3,597]

32 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

He was tied for 7th in the NFL last year in sacks.  He's been pretty consistently around 10 sacks per year.  Last year was Dee Ford's highest sack total ever and he tied Frank Clark.  I'm not sure what the problem has been this year, but he's historically been a really good pass rusher. 

Dee Ford trade was great. Guy is already injured as we all suspecred after signing a huge contract. I still like using one of 2nd rounders and our 1st for Clark. Time will tell but if he gets on track and does what he did in Seattle no one here will be bitching.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

1 hour ago, liquidfriend said:

Smh

Hardman wasn't Tyreek Hill insurance.  They were shopping WRs hard well before that shit ever came out.

They were shopping because they knew they were getting rid of a WR in 2020.  No matter what.

That Colts game was a clear example why.  They want experienced receivers playing to avoid what happened, hence why they were already aggressively looking at them all Winter long.

 

The only thing a Tyreek Hill ban would have done would of been the decision of which WR to keep.

Well that's still insurance in a way. Making sure they had a number 2 WR in 2020 regardless of their reasoning. I agree with you, they probably didnt need to move up to get him. Or Speaks. 

What will really be interesting to me is the trade deadline. Will Veach try and go big and move an early rd pick for a player? Peoples heads will explode. 

[DieHard 2,061]

50 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Dee Ford trade was great. Guy is already injured as we all suspecred after signing a huge contract. I still like using one of 2nd rounders and our 1st for Clark. Time will tell but if he gets on track and does what he did in Seattle no one here will be bitching.

I get the frustration in trading up for Speaks but I don’t think they did. Traded up yes, but not for Speaks.

And I didn’t remember trading up for Kpass, but maybe we did. 

2018 was a terrible draft but I think 2019 will prove to be special.

Ford trade, Smith trade and Peters trades were very good IMO. Clark trade was fine with respect to picks, just rough with trade to the contract.

To soon to say fire the guy. Also we don’t know who is asking for what from the coaching staff. If Spags said get me Clark, period. I don’t know.

[FANATIC 852]

4 minutes ago, DieHard said:

I get the frustration in trading up for Speaks but I don’t think they did. Traded up yes, but not for Speaks.

And I didn’t remember trading up for Kpass, but maybe we did. 

2018 was a terrible draft but I think 2019 will prove to be special.

Ford trade, Smith trade and Peters trades were very good IMO. Clark trade was fine with respect to picks, just rough with trade to the contract.

To soon to say fire the guy. Also we don’t know who is asking for what from the coaching staff. If Spags said get me Clark, period. I don’t know.

Not sure the trades worked out. Who did KC end up with from those trades? Fuller, Speaks, Clark and Im not sure who else? Fuller is another crap fest.

[DieHard 2,061]

There is a difference between good trades and good draft picks. Fuller is playing pretty well so far.

[reesebobby 5,662]

They traded the 167th pick of the draft to move up a couple places for Hardman.  Pretty much a 6th round pick given our draft slot.  If they hadn't, they would have used the 167th pick of the draft for someone not on the roster probably and if they were on the roster, everyone here would complain about how bad they are.  As it happens, the Rams traded that pick to the Patriots who then traded it to the Eagles, who drafted a no name quarterback that they traded to the Cowboys, who then put him on their practice squad.  So when we say we traded up, I think some context is important. When we traded up for Mahomes, we spent some real draft capital.  Not so much on these other guys. 

[FANATIC 852]

5 minutes ago, DieHard said:

There is a difference between good trades and good draft picks. Fuller is playing pretty well so far.

Fuller playing well? Not so sure.

[Mloe68 1,521]

2 hours ago, DieHard said:

There is a difference between good trades and good draft picks. Fuller is playing pretty well so far.

We are going to find out all about our secondary this week with the Texans WRs running wild last week vs Atlanta. Problem is we are so banged up on the dline I'm not sure sure Carlos Hyde won't get 120 yards and 2 TDs running between the tackles. Spags has his hands full. We need some gimmicky stuff on both sides of the ball combined with a ton of attitude. 

[kkuenn 3,597]

5 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

We are going to find out all about our secondary this week with the Texans WRs running wild last week vs Atlanta. Problem is we are so banged up on the dline I'm not sure sure Carlos Hyde won't get 120 yards and 2 TDs running between the tackles. Spags has his hands full. We need some gimmicky stuff on both sides of the ball combined with a ton of attitude. 

Need to play ball control on our offense too. Make every drive count and not kill ourselves with penalties. That is what bit us the most last game. The o line needs to be better but man those penalties killed us.

[Mloe68 1,521]

2 hours ago, kkuenn said:

Need to play ball control on our offense too. Make every drive count and not kill ourselves with penalties. That is what bit us the most last game. The o line needs to be better but man those penalties killed us.

Yep. We got beat up. But probably only lost through it all because of incredibly sloppy undisciplined play.