Moving on from Reid needs to be considered.

[xen 1,010,220]

33 minutes ago, Chiefmanzada said:

Agreed this relationship is one of the best in football. 

Only problem we are having is the defense. Need more aggression from this group. Chris Jones is the only man out there I see making a difference. 

Defense is a work in progress.  We all knew this.  Shouldn't really be a surprise that it's 2 steps forward and one step back.  

[dksww 484]

11 hours ago, moons314 said:

He's won 1 more conference title game than I've seen the Chiefs win in my lifetime...  I bet you would have been in favor of firing Marv Levy as well despite posting a 4-1 mark in the AFC Championship game in a 6 year span... 

Look, I respect the opinion to keep Andy Reid but I want more playoff success and championships and after 19 seasons I think it's safe to say Reid can't get you there.

If I end up wrong, great!  But, up until now, you can't expect to win a Super Bowl with Reid because games like Sunday against TEN happen too often and happen in the playoffs as well.  Just look at the dumb playoff losses we have with him already.

It's not stupid to suggest moving on from him.  Teams have done it with success in the past, just look within in the division at Denver or back in the day when TB fired Tony Dungy and then won it all next year with Gruden.  Green Bay did it in 2009, PIT won a SB with Tomlin shortly after he was hired.  This isn't a crazy off the wall notion.

[dksww 484]

1 hour ago, xen said:

This is the dumbest thread I've ever read.  Congratulations y'all.

No offense, but how can you or anyone else in here not see the similarities to the Chiefs' teams from the 90's under Schottenheimer?

The only difference is we are now heavy on offense instead of defense back then.

The same things happen every year.  We have 2-3 mind boggling losses that cost us playoff seeding and then lose a close game in the playoffs.

I understand we have Patrick Mahomes now but that's still not helping Reid manage the game or focus on defense.

[xen 1,010,220]

Meh Chargers are looking for fans.  You can probably be the coach if you want.  Reid's not going anywhere.  The rest is smoke and bitchin.

[reesebobby 5,661]

1 hour ago, dksww said:

It's not stupid to suggest moving on from him.  Teams have done it with success in the past, just look within in the division at Denver or back in the day when TB fired Tony Dungy and then won it all next year with Gruden.  Green Bay did it in 2009, PIT won a SB with Tomlin shortly after he was hired.  This isn't a crazy off the wall notion.

To be fair though.  Tampa Bay hasn't won a playoff game since.  Denver hasn't either and they've gone through several more coaching changes and are a real shit show now.  Green Bay moved on from Sherman after a 4-12 season.   Cowher retired, they didn't move on from him.  Tomlin won a Super Bowl, but they had won it a couple years prior also with Cowher. He wasn't the guy that pushed them over the edge.  

 

[reesebobby 5,661]

That said, if he ever throws another screen pass to Blake Bell on 3rd and 2 at the end of a meaningful game, I will call Clark Hunt myself. 

[Calichief 3,016]

36 minutes ago, xen said:

Meh Chargers are looking for fans.  You can probably be the coach if you want.  Reid's not going anywhere.  The rest is smoke and bitchin.

Yea. I hope Andy learns to let go. Let pat call some plays. Big article written by Keysor about Andy holding on too tight. And some rumors Bienemy was pissed on Sunday on re. The 3rd and 2

[artsy 1,137]

12 minutes ago, Calichief said:

Yea. I hope Andy learns to let go. Let pat call some plays. Big article written by Keysor about Andy holding on too tight. And some rumors Bienemy was pissed on Sunday on re. The 3rd and 2

I bet Bienenemy was pissed. But that's all he can do is be pissed because big red runs this offense!

[kkuenn 3,597]

30 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

To be fair though.  Tampa Bay hasn't won a playoff game since.  Denver hasn't either and they've gone through several more coaching changes and are a real shit show now.  Green Bay moved on from Sherman after a 4-12 season.   Cowher retired, they didn't move on from him.  Tomlin won a Super Bowl, but they had won it a couple years prior also with Cowher. He wasn't the guy that pushed them over the edge.  

 

Tomlin did get them though to another SB too.

[reesebobby 5,661]

27 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Tomlin did get them though to another SB too.

Tomlin has been fine.  I'm just saying he inherited a Super Bowl winning team and kept them there.  The Steelers have had three coaches since 1969.  They don't just "move on". 

[DefensiveMan 758]

1 hour ago, Calichief said:

Yea. I hope Andy learns to let go. Let pat call some plays. Big article written by Keysor about Andy holding on too tight. And some rumors Bienemy was pissed on Sunday on re. The 3rd and 2

Yes, he was pissed off screaming on the sideline if you re watch the play. I'm not sure he completely agreed with the call...Maybe Reid should give up play calling again, take a step back and coach the team like a HEAD Coach does. He's just overly infatuated with his offense and not much else...Kinda like the smug episode on Southpark lmao. hence, you see an undisciplined team from time to time. 

[oldtimer 8,686]

26 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

Tomlin has been fine.  I'm just saying he inherited a Super Bowl winning team and kept them there.  The Steelers have had three coaches since 1969.  They don't just "move on". 

I was waiting to see Barry Switzer's name thrown into that  SB winning replacement coach list as well

[oldtimer 8,686]

1 minute ago, DefensiveMan said:

Yes, he was pissed off screaming on the sideline if you re watch the play. I'm not sure he completely agreed with the call...Maybe Reid give up playcalling again, take a step back and coach the team like a HEAD Coach does. 

Bienamy is no more qualified to be the O coordinator than I am to be the Pope

[Calichief 3,016]

1 hour ago, oldtimer said:

Bienamy is no more qualified to be the O coordinator than I am to be the Pope

True, but the voice of reason is what I’m hoping for. Run it in that spot.

[DefensiveMan 758]

5 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

Bienamy is no more qualified to be the O coordinator than I am to be the Pope

And you would make a fine Pope, OT 

[reesebobby 5,661]

3 minutes ago, DefensiveMan said:

And you would make a fine Pope, OT 

Except for all the cussing and bourbon. 

[xen 1,010,220]

1 hour ago, oldtimer said:

Bienamy is no more qualified to be the O coordinator than I am to be the Pope

He has more play calling experience than Nagy and Pederson had when they started calling plays.  Granted it was college but still.

[xen 1,010,220]

2 hours ago, Calichief said:

Yea. I hope Andy learns to let go. Let pat call some plays. Big article written by Keysor about Andy holding on too tight. And some rumors Bienemy was pissed on Sunday on re. The 3rd and 2

Yeah it may be time to turn over playcalling.  It was early Dec of his 2nd year as coordinator that Nagy started calling plays.

[Calichief 3,016]

1 minute ago, xen said:

Yeah it may be time to turn over playcalling.  It was early Dec of his 2nd year as coordinator that Nagy started calling plays.

I couldn’t copy paste the link to the article in the athletic. It was really good. 

[xen 1,010,220]

18 minutes ago, Calichief said:

I couldn’t copy paste the link to the article in the athletic. It was really good. 

Couldn't grab the vids but here's the article.  I replaced the blank vids I could with tweets from Seth that had the same video.  

Also fwiw, Seth correctly points out on twitter that we iced the week 3 game with a similiar concept to the one that failed to ice this game (screen to rb)

Here's the article though:

 

Kansas City Chiefs head coach Andy Reid just couldn’t help himself.

And really, why would there be any doubt? After all, Reid is known as one of the NFL’s most brilliant offensive minds over the past 20 years. He has been the type of innovator that other coaches imitate. The league has changed a great deal during his time as a head coach, yet Reid’s ability to design and call effective plays has remained a constant.

So why wouldn’t he think that with the game on the line, his play-calling would give the Chiefs the best chance to win? It’s perfectly natural. But it was wrong nonetheless.

The Chiefs suffered a tough loss to the Tennessee Titans on Sunday. A series of mistakes that can’t be blamed on coaching peppered the game. A fumble by running back Damien Williams was returned for a touchdown, drops by receivers Tyreek Hill and Sammy Watkins were game-altering, and missed tackles led to huge touchdowns. Reid didn’t help things with some unnecessarily conservative fourth-down decisions. All these mistakes brought the Chiefs to the most crucial down of the game. With 1:36 remaining in the game and the Chiefs leading, 32-27, they faced a 3rd-and-2 on the Titans’ 24-yard line. The Titans had burned two (of their three) timeouts, and a conversion here would end the game.

With the game on the line, Reid did what he has done so often in his career: trusted himself. Reid dialed up a screen to backup tight end Blake Bell that relegated Hill, Travis Kelce, Demarcus Robinson (on the field instead of Watkins) and Williams to little more than glorified diversions.

This play’s single design purpose is to fool the Titans into leaving Bell uncovered and create and easy throw/catch for the first down. Unfortunately for Reid and the Chiefs, the Titans weren’t fooled and Bell was well-covered (including by his own right tackle for a moment there). Mahomes tries to buy time to his right in the hopes that Bell will come uncovered as the linebacker moves to rush, but Titans defensive lineman DaQuan Jones smartly drifts back and cuts off the passing lane to compensate, leaving Mahomes nowhere to throw the ball.

The idea behind this play is perfectly sound. Why not zig when the opponent expects you to zag? But the call here is inherently flawed in two ways. One is perhaps forgivable, the other less so.

The first problem with this design is that it ignores the results of the previous play, not just in yardage gained but in the reaction of the Titans’ defense.

Here, Williams runs for a relatively minimal gain before getting hit, but is able to churn his legs and keep moving forward. Center Austin Reiter and Bell provide an assist, and the play gains 5 yards against a team that knew the run was coming.

Look at the faces and body language of the Titans’ defenders after the play. They’re beaten. While I tend to stay away from analysis of things that cannot be quantified, the lack of emotion following that play is indicative of a team that feels like they’d given it their best shot but were just stringing out the inevitable.

Things like momentum aren’t visible in the aggregate, but during individual situations, the mindset of the opponent should at least be considered. The chances that the Chiefs could have forced their way forward for another 2 yards against a defense on its heels felt pretty good in the moment, and even better in hindsight. Reid choosing to go away from the run on the next play failed to account for that, and also led to a loss of multiple yards that could have, in theory, affected the ensuing field goal.

However, that’s not the most egregious error Reid made with this call. The more unforgivable aspect is that it ignores a simple fact that Reid cannot seem to adjust to: reigning NFL MVP Patrick Mahomes is his quarterback.

By calling this play, Reid effectively removed any options from Mahomes’ hands if the call failed. It’s the sort of call that coaches should make in crucial situations when their quarterback is flawed or more of a game manager than a creator. But that is not and has never been Mahomes, who is the best creator in the game.

This play came on a 3rd-and-2 earlier in the game. Mahomes had no options open initially, but was able to keep the play alive until Robinson came back toward him and delivered an accurate pass under absurd circumstances. Because the play called for multiple live routes and genuine pass protection, Mahomes had time to survey the field and find someone who beat the coverage. This is in direct opposition to the screen, which resulted in immediate pressure by its design and didn’t allow him a chance to create.

Mahomes provided Reid with multiple examples throughout the game of how third down was best placed in his hands, including one of the most spectacular plays of the year.

 

On this 3rd-and-9, Mahomes again doesn’t have any viable options initially, and the Titans are able to get pressure along the edge. It’s worth noting that Mahomes altered the routes or protection prior to the snap after seeing the Titans were sending extra defenders. Mahomes climbs the pocket but sees that the Titans are leaving spies in place to pursue him if he moves outside the pocket.

In the meantime, Mecole Hardman is facing man-to-man coverage in the middle of the field and is about to run a pivot route to bring himself to the outside. Mahomes knows where the route is going and sees Hardman’s defender has his back turned. He also knows that the Titans’ spy is lurking to knock down any throw in that lane. So he does the obvious thing (for him, at least) and jumps in the air as he throws to prevent a pass that can be knocked down at the line of scrimmage, placing the ball where he knows Hardman will be.

That sort of creativity on the fly is exactly why Reid’s refusal to provide Mahomes an opportunity to create at the end of the game is such a glaring mistake. Mahomes was brilliant throughout the game on third and fourth down. On 14 pass attempts, Mahomes completed 10 passes for 176 yards and a touchdown on those downs, with 8 of those opportunities leading to conversions. Those numbers actually undersell how great Mahomes was in those situations, as drops by Hill and Watkins lost a minimum of 3 catches, 39 yards and a touchdown (as well as two other conversions).

Even plays that weren’t conversions, like this Hill drop on 3rd-and-8 with 3:24 left in the fourth quarter, demonstrate how fantastic Mahomes was throughout the game in crucial moments.

Here, Mahomes identified Hill as having single coverage down the field and put the ball in a great spot, trusting Hill to make a play. The coverage is excellent, but the ball has enough velocity to arrive before the defender can get his hands up. Hill can’t bring in an admittedly tough catch, but the point remains that Mahomes made an absolutely perfect throw and good decision when given multiple options prior to the snap.

I could show play after play of Mahomes correctly reading the Titans’ coverage and making good throws on third down.

Whether the Titans blitzed or dropped multiple men into coverage, whether they played man or zone … it didn’t matter. Mahomes repeatedly made the right choice on third down and diced up an overwhelmed defense. One thing the vast majority of those plays had in common was that they provided him multiple options after the snap. Yet with the game on the line, Reid left Mahomes with just one option.

Reid has spent his career making talented but flawed quarterbacks look excellent and making subpar quarterbacks look capable. However, he has generally trusted himself over his quarterback in pivotal moments. It’s now forgotten, but Reid called a screen to Darrell Williams late in the fourth quarter against Baltimore in Week 3 as well.

 

Reid’s call here led to the game ending in favor of the Chiefs, and likely reinforced his opinion that his methodology of winning with his mind rather than his quarterback’s talent is the correct one. Of course, the completely different contexts of the plays (different down and distance, different part of the field, different player) and the fact that the Titans had that call on film to prepare for should have given Reid pause. But it didn’t, and the Titans were ready for it.

---

A lot of things went wrong in this game that Reid couldn’t control, and to blame the loss entirely on him or a single play call is foolish. But when a pattern emerges that’s problematic, ignoring one of the causes is the opposite of winning football. And the Chiefs have a pattern of struggling to finish close games.

Reid and Mahomes have always had the potential to be a perfect marriage. The work Reid has done with Mahomes in coaching out some of his worst tendencies can’t be overstated, and Reid’s exceptional offensive design has provided Mahomes with open receivers on many of his dropbacks.

But a perfect marriage is a two-way street, and right now Reid is the spouse who isn’t willing to change when it matters most. Reid must learn to trust Mahomes, along with his route combinations, in the biggest moments rather than only trusting his own play design.

Reid has shown a willingness to grow and change his offense multiple times over the course of his career. Now he has a choice to make. He can either make the toughest change of his career and adjust to life with Mahomes in clutch moments, or his team can continue to live or die based on his ability to out-think the enemy. Down one path lies a likely Super Bowl, whether it’s this season or in the coming years. Down the other path is more frustrating endings in which the best player in football is rendered irrelevant when it counts.

(Photo: Scott Winters/Icon Sportswire via Getty Images)

[SEMO 6,811]

Spot on.

[Mloe68 1,521]

Terrific story and spot on by Seth. 

[Lamardirts 2,114]

The difference is Darrel Williams, who is underutilized but talented and has been known to catch some difficult passes, and Blake "Stone Hands" Bell.   I don't really fault passing there even though running makes more sense.  Just wondering where on the play sheet did that play come from.   3rd an 2 and a a chance to end this sloppy game....Tyreek Hill....no he's too good,  Sammy.....nah......Kelce.....too obvious.....Mecole......too young....DRob.....doesn't feel right......Byron Pringle......nope.....Damien Williams......not a chance....Blake Bell.....Brilliant!!!!   

[Calichief 3,016]

Couldn’t you say that’s why the titans knew it was coming? Going to the well again?

 

[Calichief 3,016]

Would be amazing if someone could get this on Reid’s desk. He needs to read this.

its everything we’ve been saying. Just written better.