Draft Class

[Mloe68 1,521]

29 minutes ago, sith13 said:

D is for 2019 not the entire regime. The story has been the same pretty much every season with a couple exceptions. We load up on a lot of promising youngsters most of which don't do much, if at all, as a rookie and some pan out to be solid players going forward. 

So in a draft class without a first round pick we have already seen over 1,700 snaps from our rookies and gotten tangible big plays in the form of sacks, INTs, or TDs from Hardman, Thornhill, Saunders, Thompson and Fenton and you give the group a D grade. Good grief! This is a three time division winner not some 2-14 team looking to turn over the entire roster. That's a ton of snaps and production from a bunch of 2nd-7th round picks. 

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

1 hour ago, Mloe68 said:

So in a draft class without a first round pick we have already seen over 1,700 snaps from our rookies and gotten tangible big plays in the form of sacks, INTs, or TDs from Hardman, Thornhill, Saunders, Thompson and Fenton and you give the group a D grade. Good grief! This is a three time division winner not some 2-14 team looking to turn over the entire roster. That's a ton of snaps and production from a bunch of 2nd-7th round picks. 

The idea that we have immediate needs and are still following our board and drafting the players we think are gonna be the best LONG TERM doesnt seem to register with him.

If a player is drafted and is not an impact starter quickly, he clearly thinks they deserve a poor grade.

Sith logic : SB caliber rosters should only draft to fill holes and those players better damn well start week one. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

12 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

The idea that we have immediate needs and are still following our board and drafting the players we think are gonna be the best LONG TERM doesnt seem to register with him.

If a player is drafted and is not an impact starter quickly, he clearly thinks they deserve a poor grade.

Sith logic : SB caliber rosters should only draft to fill holes and those players better damn well start week one. 

Where we have gotten into trouble is when we draft players in the first few rounds and then try to convert them to another position. I would agree that's a flawed philsophy so early in the draft. But the notion you should get a ready made starter in round 2 of the draft doesn't make sense.

You should draft players on the first two days of the draft that you can carve out a role for during their rookie seasons. And expect that to happen. Mecole is a perfect example. Tons of upside from a raw WR who is still only 21 years old. We knew he wasn't rolling in here and producing a 1,000 yard, 10 TD season. But they also had a role in mind for him and it's worked well. Fact he doesn't start yet means nothing to his overall value. On that same token if you don't have any idea where a player fits initially, you probably shouldn't draft him in the first few rounds. 

Giving a D to this draft class is a joke. 

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

1 hour ago, Mloe68 said:

Where we have gotten into trouble is when we draft players in the first few rounds and then try to convert them to another position. I would agree that's a flawed philsophy so early in the draft. But the notion you should get a ready made starter in round 2 of the draft doesn't make sense.

You should draft players on the first two days of the draft that you can carve out a role for during their rookie seasons. And expect that to happen. Mecole is a perfect example. Tons of upside from a raw WR who is still only 21 years old. We knew he wasn't rolling in here and producing a 1,000 yard, 10 TD season. But they also had a role in mind for him and it's worked well. Fact he doesn't start yet means nothing to his overall value. On that same token if you don't have any idea where a player fits initially, you probably shouldn't draft him in the first few rounds. 

Giving a D to this draft class is a joke. 

Absolutely. Veach has really redeemed himself with this class. Speaks and ODaniel are absolutely killing us not being contributors. I dont get it with DOD. He was damn good in college.

But to have Fenton turn out to be this good is an absolute steal, and hes honestly playing as well as you could hope a 2nd or 3rd rounder would. So you win some you lose some. 

And how big was Saunders while Jones was out? I mean this draft class has been damn good, and if this RB turns out to be an answer...you are looking at a borderline "A" draft class.

Let's just hope Reid is not scared to feed him. 

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

This draft class is looking good. Drafting for the future in the first few rounds is dumb. Take k-pas for example, by the time he develops its time for him to get payed, and he likely goes to another team now that he is solid.

take plug and play guys in early rounds and utilize the value of their cheap rookie deals, take developmental guys in round 4-7

[liquidfriend 1,151]

44 minutes ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

This draft class is looking good. Drafting for the future in the first few rounds is dumb.

what?  lmao

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

8 minutes ago, liquidfriend said:

what?  lmao

Drafting players who wont contribute during their rookie deals and are intended to be developed before being productive between years 4 and 8 of their career is a dumb use of high picks. See k-pas and speaks as examples

[liquidfriend 1,151]

13 hours ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

Drafting players who wont contribute during their rookie deals and are intended to be developed before being productive between years 4 and 8 of their career is a dumb use of high picks. See k-pas and speaks as examples

The whole concept of the draft is to draft for tomorrow.  Your line doesn't contain any logic.

[Calichief 3,016]

How many of the 220 plus guys drafted are ready to play day 1?

30-40?

 

8-10%

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

1 hour ago, Calichief said:

How many of the 220 plus guys drafted are ready to play day 1?

30-40?

 

8-10%

Difference between ready to play day 1 and being known it will take two years to develop before expecting any roi

[sith13 1,746]

On 12/6/2019 at 10:34 PM, Mloe68 said:

So in a draft class without a first round pick we have already seen over 1,700 snaps from our rookies and gotten tangible big plays in the form of sacks, INTs, or TDs from Hardman, Thornhill, Saunders, Thompson and Fenton and you give the group a D grade. Good grief! This is a three time division winner not some 2-14 team looking to turn over the entire roster. That's a ton of snaps and production from a bunch of 2nd-7th round picks. 

Your approach is basically whatever we can get from rookies is a plus, which isn't realistic in the NFL. The success of the draft consists of what you get from the rookies while taking what other teams get from them in your positions of need. If you select a RB, then any RB taken later than yours who is doing a better job will lower your grade. Chiefs have way too much of an opportunity cost in this draft just like 2018. When the Raiders find a solid TE in 4th which is a big need for us, our WR pick in 2nd who's doing less than him simply turns into a negative grade. Not to mention the beating Mahomes is getting behind this terrible line, which could have been lessened using those picks more usefully. 

In order for 2019 draft to be successful we need the rookies to justify the beating Mahomes is getting as well as lack of production in areas they were supposed to fix. Later picks who contribute little all over the NFL have less impact and basically any positive is a plus but earlier picks cannot be just taken into consideration at the same level.

If we go with your approach of ignoring others (and looks like negative plays from ours) where would you rank our draft class among the NFL? D is basically an average draft with more long term investment rather than short term gain, how would you grade it? 

[kkuenn 3,597]

You cant do that bs. Play the 20/20 game. If so every back sucked last year compared to when Lindsey was drafted. If a TE has more yards than our WR you do realize they dont have much else at all to throw to. We habe a good kick returner from him too playing at a pro bowl level.

 Was that taken into consideration? I dont know the yards or even tds he has but hardman has done well with the limited passes and olays he has had, as seen by the 48 yard td yesterday.

 

 

Edit: this TE, Foster Moreau, has 21 receptions for 174 yards and 5 tds. Hardman has 25 for 598 and 6 tds, not including any rushing yards or kick off. How is Hardman doing less than him?

[sith13 1,746]

1 hour ago, kkuenn said:

You cant do that bs. Play the 20/20 game. If so every back sucked last year compared to when Lindsey was drafted. If a TE has more yards than our WR you do realize they dont have much else at all to throw to. We habe a good kick returner from him too playing at a pro bowl level.

 Was that taken into consideration? I dont know the yards or even tds he has but hardman has done well with the limited passes and olays he has had, as seen by the 48 yard td yesterday.

Sucked isn't the right word. Any GM who didn't draft Barkley or Chubb last year simply gets a lower grade from their RB selection due to Lindsay's presence. It's probably a non-factor for late rounds but you don't get a decent grade for Gus Edwards by simply looking at his stats last year which are comparable to Hardman in total numbers. Not to mention guys like Penny or Michel early in the draft.

Not sure why you would think Hardman is a pro-bowl level returner. The guy is leading the returners in fumbles with a total of 3 returns that are better than a touch-back and only 1 big punt return (even thought that's mostly due to bad blocking this year). By that logic Tremon Smith would get us a high draft grade last year as he averaged even more in returns while having the same number of fumbles. 

The value depends on the team drafting the players. Hardman is still our #4 WR in terms of targets and yards, he has big play ability which he has shown again in the TD catch but clearly neither Reid nor Mahomes consider him a priority option. When your 2nd round pick is mostly an afterthought that doesn't increase the grade of the pick. In the mean time we have Mahomes turning into a punching bag and opposing defenders almost grabbing the hand-off instead of our RBs. We didn't have any issues at TE with Kelce handling the entire position by himself but if he had any issues the WR pick in 2nd would look even worse and there's the dumpsterfire that is our LBs. Overall a pick is only valuable if it improves the team. 

We have a very solid pick in Thornhill and Saunders looks like he'll be a decent guy going forward. Fenton also showed some promise in the small sample size together with Thompson. All of these guys address a position of need and some of them panning out will increase our draft grade. Kpass was definitely a F-pick until this year and Speaks is no different. We cannot really increase the grades of these guys until they actually prove worthy of those picks. 

[kkuenn 3,597]

He is leading voter in pro bowl now for kick returner. I showed the link earlier post

[sith13 1,746]

16 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

He is leading voter in pro bowl now. I showed the link earlier post

Unfortunately those votes don't protect Mahomes or get Hardman more involved in the game. We had Albert as an all-pro LT and Fisher was voted in as well, that's how much people care about some positions. He's basically Eddy Curry of returners right now but the entire ST is terrible in 2019, may be he can become a much more useful guy with a better unit.

By the way I do believe that Hardman would be more effective if actually used but for some reason he's not. Even when Hill was out we had other guys stepping up instead of Hardman. Also a team like Seattle would get a higher grade with Hardman IMO as he would be filling a real need.

[Mloe68 1,521]

7 hours ago, sith13 said:

Your approach is basically whatever we can get from rookies is a plus, which isn't realistic in the NFL. The success of the draft consists of what you get from the rookies while taking what other teams get from them in your positions of need. If you select a RB, then any RB taken later than yours who is doing a better job will lower your grade. Chiefs have way too much of an opportunity cost in this draft just like 2018. When the Raiders find a solid TE in 4th which is a big need for us, our WR pick in 2nd who's doing less than him simply turns into a negative grade. Not to mention the beating Mahomes is getting behind this terrible line, which could have been lessened using those picks more usefully. 

In order for 2019 draft to be successful we need the rookies to justify the beating Mahomes is getting as well as lack of production in areas they were supposed to fix. Later picks who contribute little all over the NFL have less impact and basically any positive is a plus but earlier picks cannot be just taken into consideration at the same level.

If we go with your approach of ignoring others (and looks like negative plays from ours) where would you rank our draft class among the NFL? D is basically an average draft with more long term investment rather than short term gain, how would you grade it? 

Thornhill is half of the most improved safety group in the NFL. Hardman continues to make big plays leading all rookies with 6 TDs over 20 yards.  Our Dline has been hit hard by injuries all year yet Saunders has helped to keep it together and had 2 pressures yesterday.  Fenton as a late round pick has a massively important INT vs LA.  Thompson has 3 of his 4 catches yesterday move the chains.  Our rookies continue to produce and were a big part of ending a 21 game home winning streak for NE. And that without a first rounder.  Veach is closing in on a clear year one A for the 2019 class.  And he also added a nice developmental offensive linemen too that I think could become our center.  

[kkuenn 3,597]

52 minutes ago, sith13 said:

Unfortunately those votes don't protect Mahomes or get Hardman more involved in the game. We had Albert as an all-pro LT and Fisher was voted in as well, that's how much people care about some positions. He's basically Eddy Curry of returners right now but the entire ST is terrible in 2019, may be he can become a much more useful guy with a better unit.

By the way I do believe that Hardman would be more effective if actually used but for some reason he's not. Even when Hill was out we had other guys stepping up instead of Hardman. Also a team like Seattle would get a higher grade with Hardman IMO as he would be filling a real need.

And like many of us, we did not think the o line was an issue last year and all were set up for this year and beyond. Again a 20/20 issue really.

[reesebobby 5,662]

1 hour ago, sith13 said:

Unfortunately those votes don't protect Mahomes or get Hardman more involved in the game. We had Albert as an all-pro LT and Fisher was voted in as well, that's how much people care about some positions. He's basically Eddy Curry of returners right now but the entire ST is terrible in 2019, may be he can become a much more useful guy with a better unit.

By the way I do believe that Hardman would be more effective if actually used but for some reason he's not. Even when Hill was out we had other guys stepping up instead of Hardman. Also a team like Seattle would get a higher grade with Hardman IMO as he would be filling a real need.

It seems pretty likely that Hardman is going to have a better rookie season than Tyreek, even with all those weapons ahead of him.  It also seems pretty likely that Watkins won't be back.  It's a for sure thing that Kelce is on the wrong side of 30.  I get that we need to protect Mahomes, but part of protecting him and making him successful is giving him targets.  We ignored that position for a long time.  I will never bitch about taking quality wide receivers. 

[sith13 1,746]

14 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

And like many of us, we did not think the o line was an issue last year and all were set up for this year and beyond. Again a 20/20 issue really.

I doubt anyone expected OL to be set for years but we sure weren't expecting something this bad. Especially Reiter showed a lot more promise as a backup but looks like he's simply Marcus Cooper v2.0

[kkuenn 3,597]

24 minutes ago, sith13 said:

I doubt anyone expected OL to be set for years but we sure weren't expecting something this bad. Especially Reiter showed a lot more promise as a backup but looks like he's simply Marcus Cooper v2.0

Reiter. LDT coming back from injury was to be pluses. They have played like shit and then throw in LG injury and the injury to Fisher.....

[sith13 1,746]

5 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

It seems pretty likely that Hardman is going to have a better rookie season than Tyreek, even with all those weapons ahead of him.  It also seems pretty likely that Watkins won't be back.  It's a for sure thing that Kelce is on the wrong side of 30.  I get that we need to protect Mahomes, but part of protecting him and making him successful is giving him targets.  We ignored that position for a long time.  I will never bitch about taking quality wide receivers. 

I doubt he can have as good of a season as Hill. Hill had 9 TDs with 860 total yards of offense and a total of 1 fumble as a rookie. He also added close to 1000 yards in returns with 3 TDs and no fumbles. 

Hardman has surpassed Hill in fumbles but doesn't really have a shot in other categories unless he comes out with a freakish performance in the next 3 weeks. That being said Hill-type performance isn't a realistic expectation from a rookie. Right now Hardman needs to pass Robinson in the depth chart before anything and then take over Watkins. In the last 5 games Hardman has a total of 6 targets. He made 2 big plays among those targets but unfortunately for Hardman WR hasn't been a need for us in 2019, which devalues him as a player. On another team he could have a much different impact.

With a few exceptions wide receivers are dime a dozen and the new rules keep making it easier to play the position. It's always good to add quality guys to the mix but the compensation should justify the addition. Kelce has just turned to the wrong side of 30 and a TE was already a bigger need. The problem with high draft picks on possible future needs is that they don't help the team win the SB. 

[sith13 1,746]

16 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Reiter. LDT coming back frin unjury was to be pluses. They have played like shit and then throw in LG injury and the injury to Fisher.....

What hurts more is that we haven't really had any progress from our recent project linemen. Wylie is the only one that got a nod and he's simply terrible while not being this bad in 2018.

[reesebobby 5,662]

14 minutes ago, sith13 said:

I doubt he can have as good of a season as Hill. Hill had 9 TDs with 860 total yards of offense and a total of 1 fumble as a rookie. He also added close to 1000 yards in returns with 3 TDs and no fumbles. 

Hardman has surpassed Hill in fumbles but doesn't really have a shot in other categories unless he comes out with a freakish performance in the next 3 weeks. That being said Hill-type performance isn't a realistic expectation from a rookie. Right now Hardman needs to pass Robinson in the depth chart before anything and then take over Watkins. In the last 5 games Hardman has a total of 6 targets. He made 2 big plays among those targets but unfortunately for Hardman WR hasn't been a need for us in 2019, which devalues him as a player. On another team he could have a much different impact.

With a few exceptions wide receivers are dime a dozen and the new rules keep making it easier to play the position. It's always good to add quality guys to the mix but the compensation should justify the addition. Kelce has just turned to the wrong side of 30 and a TE was already a bigger need. The problem with high draft picks on possible future needs is that they don't help the team win the SB. 

I'm talking about as a receiver.  He needs 1 touchdown and 96 yards over the final three games to have more yards and touchdowns receiving than Tyreek did as a rookie.  Tyreek as a rookie did have the 267 rushing yards, but he hasn't come close since.  We can see what is happening with Brady and the Patriots with just one viable receiving option.  He is getting beat up worse than he ever has.  You need protection, but you also need an open receiver to throw to.  They are both important. 

And he doesn't have to take over Watkins, Watkins is as good as gone. 

[sith13 1,746]

1 minute ago, reesebobby said:

I'm talking about as a receiver.  He needs 1 touchdown and 96 yards over the final three games to have more yards and touchdowns receiving than Tyreek did as a rookie.  Tyreek as a rookie did have the 267 rushing yards, but he hasn't come close since.  We can see what is happening with Brady and the Patriots with just one viable receiving option.  He is getting beat up worse than he ever has.  You need protection, but you also need an open receiver to throw to.  They are both important. 

And he doesn't have to take over Watkins, Watkins is as good as gone. 

I think Hardman has a few of those Hill-type rushes this year too and a couple TDs. Basically a matter of being in front or behind the QB on whatever play Reid has designed. Hill was the whole package as a rookie, but seems to be used a lot less in the backfield plays as opposed to his rookie season. 

We already had Hill, Watkins, Robinson (Mahomes' guy?), Pringle on the roster when we drafted Hardman. In fact Hardman has never been the leading receiver for us this year even with a shallow depth chart as both Robinson and Pringle took over that role from him when we were expecting Hardman to be that guy. So Hardman isn't ready for the task or Reid is planning on using him in a very different manner which he will integrate to our receiving game later on (may be 2020?). 

While picking Hardman WR was still one of our deepest groups on the roster and even when looking just at the receiving game we are one Kelce injury away from needing to shift the entire game plan. So realistically Hardman serves no purpose in 2019, he might in 2020 and beyond but that will start to matter when he becomes such a player. 

[reesebobby 5,662]

22 minutes ago, sith13 said:

We already had Hill, Watkins, Robinson (Mahomes' guy?), Pringle on the roster when we drafted Hardman.

While picking Hardman WR was still one of our deepest groups on the roster

I think it's pretty telling that when you talk about our depth at wide receiver, you list a guy that had never played a down and currently has 170 career receiving yards and another guy that had 13 starts in 3 years with 500 career receiving yards. 

Tyreek was looking down the barrel of a suspension and Watkins missed about half of the previous two seasons with nagging injuries and nobody here liked him. 

If you want to consider going into the season that that was depth, then we will just disagree and move on.