Lenny Dawson still the best?

[jetlord 10,209]

3 hours ago, Thegoatee said:

Mahomes has had the best two years of any KC QB ever. I think we can leave it at that for now. Get to another Super Bowl, let alone win it, I think you can make him best ever Chiefs QB hands down.

Another SB next year wouldn't make Mahomes the greatest Chief of all times.  To get there, he has to have longevity and be successful over more years.  I think he's certainly on track and barring injury or a team collapse, he'll go down ahead of Dawson, but give it time.  Mahomes is the top QB in the game right now.  Dawson was not considered the best of his time but with a number of elite players around him, had long term success. 

[Calichief 3,016]

17 minutes ago, jetlord said:

Another SB next year wouldn't make Mahomes the greatest Chief of all times.  To get there, he has to have longevity and be successful over more years.  I think he's certainly on track and barring injury or a team collapse, he'll go down ahead of Dawson, but give it time.  Mahomes is the top QB in the game right now.  Dawson was not considered the best of his time but with a number of elite players around him, had long term success. 

You bring two Super Bowls to this town, you are the best instantly. No longevity.

its about titles. 

[jetlord 10,209]

2 minutes ago, Calichief said:

You bring two Super Bowls to this town, you are the best instantly. No longevity.

its about titles. 

So Marino wasn't great?  I get your point that titles are the ultimate goal, but greatness isn't just based on their number.  If BUFF won the SB next year, would their QB be greater than Kelly?

[Calichief 3,016]

4 minutes ago, jetlord said:

So Marino wasn't great?  I get your point that titles are the ultimate goal, but greatness isn't just based on their number.  If BUFF won the SB next year, would their QB be greater than Kelly?

No.

but in this case, pat is better than Lenny. He’s more talented in every way. Owns nfl records etc. and those are never ending it seems. 

But it’s not worthy arguing about.

pat will have longevity anyway

[sith13 1,746]

Len will always be great, Mahomes might be the greatest but needs a decade or so to cement his status as couple years don't make great QBs in history. Over time I think Mahomes has the tools to be the GOAT in the NFL but needs to get there.

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

Personally I don't remember people in the 60s and 70s calling a single player the "GOAT" or even saying they were great. People would talk about teams being the best but not great. I personally believe it was because Great meant something then now it's a term given very easily now days. Sorta like Participation Trophies. 

[Wolfscall 204]

8 hours ago, Calichief said:

You bring two Super Bowls to this town, you are the best instantly. No longevity.

its about titles. 

That still puts him one behind Dawson. You can say AFL......blah, blah blah, but Dawson has 3 AFL titles and one Super Bowl. Not dissing Mahomes by any means, Let's just give him time to do his thing and enjoy the ride. 

[SEMO 6,811]

We just won the Superbowl people!

I guess we still have to find something to argue about. 🙄

Lenny was great in his time.  Mahomes is great in his.  Good enough for me.

[Adamixoye 604]

Just for context, Pat has roughly 1/3 of Len's career volume stats (yards and TDs) in roughly 1/5 of the starts (and 1/7 of the seasons as a starter).

I don't know how you weight peak vs. volume.  Pat clearly has the peak already.  Presuming health it won't take him long to catch up in volume, and his efficiency is already superior.

So I think that's the answer.  Peak vs. volume is a different question.  Pat already has the peak.  He needs time to catch up in volume, but I have no doubt he'll get there barring something disastrous.

I don't think this constitutes silly arguing.  It's a fun question since now we actually have two Super Bowl winning QBs in franchise history to talk about and compare...

[robgar 1,046]

28,507  ... so 6 seasons?

[Adamixoye 604]

3 minutes ago, robgar said:

28,507  ... so 6 seasons?

Presuming health I have to think 4000 yards/year is Pat's absolute floor (he did it this year despite 2.5 games missed plus other nagging injuries), and that's conservative.  So yeah I think he gets 19k yards in 4 more seasons, easy.

[Adamixoye 604]

Pat will move from 9th to 5th on the franchise career leaderboard by October.

He'll pass Alex for 3rd in 2021.

[Mloe68 1,521]

11 hours ago, sith13 said:

Len will always be great, Mahomes might be the greatest but needs a decade or so to cement his status as couple years don't make great QBs in history. Over time I think Mahomes has the tools to be the GOAT in the NFL but needs to get there.

There’s.a difference between NFL history and our history. My point is simply Lenny or nobody else was ever as good here as Mahomes the last two years.  He’s the best we’ve ever had. 

[xen 1,010,220]

Patrick Mahomes is the best QB in Chiefs history.  While I do believe you can't compare eras that far apart, I also have eyes and a brain.  This is a fact.  The old farts around here are just gonna have to deal with it.  Doesn't mean Lenny wasn't awesome as well.

[sith13 1,746]

24 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

There’s.a difference between NFL history and our history. My point is simply Lenny or nobody else was ever as good here as Mahomes the last two years.  He’s the best we’ve ever had. 

There hasn't been anyone as good as Mahomes' last two years in the NFL history. The thing is greatness requires doing it over time. Otherwise it gets overlooked rather easily. 

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

2 hours ago, xen said:

Patrick Mahomes is the best QB in Chiefs history.  While I do believe you can't compare eras that far apart, I also have eyes and a brain.  This is a fact.  The old farts around here are just gonna have to deal with it.  Doesn't mean Lenny wasn't awesome as well.

Doesn't have anything to do with old farts as much as youngsters having to label someone greatest or best ever.

Mahomes has NEVER had 7 sacks in a game, which is still a record, but DT did. Oh wait comparing apples and oranges. Sorta like comparing QBs of the 60s and early 70s to the pass happy NFL of today.

Jim Brown couldn't compare to the RBs of today yet he is still considered the "best" to ever play the position. Ended his career with less than 2500 receiving yards and 20 TD. In 3 years McCaffrey has over 2500 receiving yards and 15 TDs. Does that make him better than Brown? 

[Mloe68 1,521]

6 minutes ago, Chiefsfan1963 said:

Doesn't have anything to do with old farts as much as youngsters having to label someone greatest or best ever.

Mahomes has NEVER had 7 sacks in a game, which is still a record, but DT did. Oh wait comparing apples and oranges. Sorta like comparing QBs of the 60s and early 70s to the pass happy NFL of today.

Jim Brown couldn't compare to the RBs of today yet he is still considered the "best" to ever play the position. Ended his career with less than 2500 receiving yards and 20 TD. In 3 years McCaffrey has over 2500 receiving yards and 15 TDs. Does that make him better than Brown? 

It’s got nothing to do with anything other than simple reality Mahomes is a better player.  Do we live in a world where you can’t call a spade a spade. As for Jim Brown he dominated his era like no RB ever has.  

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

5 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

As for Jim Brown he dominated his era like no RB ever has.  

So is he or isn't he the greatest RB to play the game, simple question? 

[Mloe68 1,521]

2 minutes ago, Chiefsfan1963 said:

So is he or isn't he the greatest RB to play the game, simple question? 

Yes. I’d absolutely consider Brown the best ever because again he dominated his era like nobody ever has. This isn’t hard. Smaller sample size but Mahomes is doing some of those same historic things right now.  

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

11 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

Yes. I’d absolutely consider Brown the best ever because again he dominated his era like nobody ever has. This isn’t hard. Smaller sample size but Mahomes is doing some of those same historic things right now.  

Mahomes, was considered the MVP last year basically saying he WAS the best in the NFL then. This year, Jackson was selected UNANIMOUSLY the MVP which means the NFL believes Jackson was the best player this year. Before you point out that Mahomes has won both, remember Kurt Warner has also won both MVPs but I would no way call him the best of his era.

Bottom line, the line changes constantly thus trying to say one is better than another who played in different era's should not be compared against each other.

However, as long as there are fans there will always be disagreements on these subjects.

[Mloe68 1,521]

1 minute ago, Chiefsfan1963 said:

Mahomes, was considered the MVP last year basically saying he WAS the best in the NFL then. This year, Jackson was selected UNANIMOUSLY the MVP which means the NFL believes Jackson was the best player this year. Before you point out that Mahomes has won both, remember Kurt Warner has also won both MVPs but I would no way call him the best of his era.

Bottom line, the line changes constantly thus trying to say one is better than another who played in different era's should not be compared against each other.

However, as long as there are fans there will always be disagreements on these subjects.

Was Len Dawson ever the MVP in 15 plus seasons. He was a very good player in his era playing in a league with far fewer teams and less talent.But he wasn’t dominant. Mahomes has been both in the regular season and postseason. He’s clearly the best we’ve ever had.  

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

3 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

Was Len Dawson ever the MVP in 15 plus seasons. He was a very good player in his era playing in a league with far fewer teams and less talent.But he wasn’t dominant. Mahomes has been both in the regular season and postseason. He’s clearly the best we’ve ever had.  

No Lenny was not an NFL MVP. Boomer Esiason was a league MVP does that make him an elite QB?

[xen 1,010,220]

52 minutes ago, Chiefsfan1963 said:

Doesn't have anything to do with old farts as much as youngsters having to label someone greatest or best ever.

Mahomes has NEVER had 7 sacks in a game, which is still a record, but DT did. Oh wait comparing apples and oranges. Sorta like comparing QBs of the 60s and early 70s to the pass happy NFL of today.

Jim Brown couldn't compare to the RBs of today yet he is still considered the "best" to ever play the position. Ended his career with less than 2500 receiving yards and 20 TD. In 3 years McCaffrey has over 2500 receiving yards and 15 TDs. Does that make him better than Brown? 

No need to tie yourself in a knot to justify your opinion.

You're wrong and that's ok.  I was wrong once too.  But just once.

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Mahomes doesn't have a better/different skill set, better/different cast of characters surrounding him or that he has done what he has done in the little time he has played. The discussion, at least from my standpoint is, you can't compare players from different era's against each other. It's like comparing muscle cars of yesteryear to the wannabes of today.

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

3 minutes ago, xen said:

No need to tie yourself in a knot to justify your opinion.

You're wrong and that's ok.  I was wrong once too.  But just once.

Your wrong again, for the 2nd time.