Kliff Kingsbury's Experience With Patrick Mahomes Should Give Perspective When Scouting QBs

[xen 1,010,220]

Some interesting info here....

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/02/27/kliff-kingsbury-johnny-manziel-patrick-mahomes-qb-scouting-lessons

Kliff Kingsbury's Experience With Patrick Mahomes Should Give Perspective When Scouting QBs

Kliff Kingsbury learned some valuable lessons from the quarterbacks he coached in the college ranks. Those lessons should inform the way NFL teams think about certain QB prospects.

ALBERT BREER · 6 HOURS AGO

INDIANAPOLIS— It was the third week of this particular Texas school’s season, and the 19year-old phenom had yet to emphatically announce his presence to the nation—even if the guys who worked with him had an idea of what was coming.

On the play, the kid must’ve reversed field three times to avoid the oncoming rushers, breaking a bunch of quarterbacking rules in the process, before somehow, inexplicably putting it in the end zone. The defensive players from South Carolina State didn’t know it then, but they’d soon find out: That was just the start.

“I’m like, ‘What is he doing? What is he doing?! He’s not even running the offense,’” said the kid’s coach, Kliff Kingsbury. “But then he puts it in the end zone. And you just high-five him, and I’m apologizing to our head coach—‘Coach, I don’t know what he’s doing out there.’ But he’s scoring every time. After that game, I’m like, ‘Alright, there’s going to be some ups and downs, but if you have a kid who has this type of ability, you gotta relinquish the reins.’”

Kingsbury then smiles and says, “And let him do his deal.”

You might think this is the former Texas Tech coach recalling the best of Patrick Mahomes from their three years together in Lubbock. But this comes from a time before Kingsbury had even met Mahomes—he only had a rough idea who he was at that point—and before he took the job his alma mater.

For this memory, he was Texas A&M’s offensive coordinator. His QB: Johnny Manziel.  Kingsbury didn’t know it at the time, but he counts that moment now as when his view of quarterbacks changed forever. Manziel threw for three touchdowns and ran for two more in that 70-14 win. Three months later, Manziel was lifting the Heisman Trophy. Along the way, how he played, and how Kingsbury coached him, set the stage for the coach to become smitten a year later with a high school quarterback with similarly unconventional ability.

That one was Mahomes. And by then, Kingsbury had learned what NFL teams took a long time to figure out—that the risk in passing on a playmaking talent like that, and missing out, was far greater than the risk of bringing one in and having to work around what he might not be. Which he first learned in coaching Manziel.

“It was one of those deals, the best athlete on the playground, he’s gonna be the best player,” said Kingsbury. “Of the highlight tapes I’ve seen, the best ones I’ve ever seen from high school were Johnny’s, Kyler [Murray]’s and Patrick Mahomes’s. They just dominated. Kyler was a little more polished than those guys, because of his dad, and growing up that way.

But with Johnny and Pat, I mean, they just ran around and made plays—and they dominated. If
they dominate at that level, they’re gonna have a good chance to dominate at the next.”

For our conversation, Kingsbury was sitting in a hotel lobby a half-dozen blocks from Lucas Oil Stadium, where, tonight, this year’s crop of quarterbacks will throw for scouts and coaches.

Those evaluating them in the stands will all have the image of what Mahomes just did in the Super Bowl still burned into their brains. The question then will become what kind of impact it makes on these guys when we get to April.

***

We're at the combine for this week's GamePlan! And from here, we'll give you...

A ranking of unrestricted free agents that will actually make it to the market.

A look at whether the CBA will get done.
Reasoning on why there may be pass-rusher trades this March.

But we’re starting with Kingsbury, and what the NFL might learn from him.

***

It was a little over three years ago that Mahomes put his name in for a grade with the NFL draft board, and it came back with a disappointing result. The panel marked him as a
second- or third-round prospect. In his surprise, Kingsbury came up with a plan.

“So I fly down to Tyler (Mahomes’s hometown) and try to convince him to come back to school,” Kingsbury said. “And I’ve felt like a d--- ever since, like, ‘Pat, I promise you I wasn’t that guy, man. When they said second round, I knew you should be the first pick of the draft.’ That’s what I told him: ‘There’s no way you shouldn’t be the first pick in the draft.  Come back, we’ll make you a lot of money. This is crazy that you’re saying this about you.’

“He gave me that space, but I could see it in his eyes, he knew what he was about to do.”

At the very least, Kingsbury saw Mahomes’s vision as less crazy than that draft panel’s.

“It’s nuts,” he said. “And you take that into account, Well, if it’s a 2/3, here’s the presentation, we’re getting you back to school, you should be a first-round pick, let’s earn some money, get your degree, all these things. But in hindsight? I always mess with him, ‘Dude, I promise you I wasn’t being the selfish asshole here. I want what’s best for you.’ And luckily it worked out.”

Now, it’s easy to drill the panel for their grade, given that we all have the hindsight of the historic start that Mahomes’s career is off to.  But the truth is that the NFL’s committee wasn’t
alone back in 2017. And even Kingsbury himself will admit that he may not have seen Mahomes the same way he did seven years ago, when he landed at Tech and first started recruiting the East Texas prep prospect in earnest.

Kingsbury had first been put on to Mahomes by his line coach at A&M, B.J. Armstrong, who
was from East Texas originally and used to tell his old staffmate that Mahomes’s dad was the
greatest athlete he’d ever seen—and that he had a son who Kingsbury should check out. A year later, in the fall of 2013, Kingsbury had a verbal commitment from Mahomes and went to use his, by rule, one opportunity to watch the kid live.

The Whitehouse High senior torched Carthage for seven touchdowns that night, and Kingsbury and his OC at Texas Tech, Sonny Cumbie, got nervous in those stands, thinking the recruiting radar of the college-football bluebloods might start to go off. “We were freaking out over it,” he said.

Thankfully for Tech, that didn’t happen. Oklahoma State and Rice were the two offers most competitive with Kingsbury’s, and Mahomes signed in February 2014 without incident. And that it played out that way isn’t totally unrelated to the NFL not quite getting it with Mahomes in 2017.

“It didn’t look like traditional quarterback play,” Kingsbury said. “He kind of shuffled back with the ball, he ran around, and just made play after play after play, kind of just doing his own thing. He played in a great system. They spread it out, his high school coach let him do his deal, and had a hell of an offense for him. But I think more than anything, he just didn’t look like your traditional quarterback.”

And at one point, that might’ve bothered Kingsbury. At one point, he might’ve missed what others did. But at this point, after his experience with Manziel, he wasn’t missing on Mahomes, like some would three years later.

***

Mike Smith was a teammate of Kingsbury’s at Tech, and assistant defensive line coach with the Chiefs during Mahomes’s final year at school, and he’d tipped his old buddy off that Andy Reid was watching the quarterback’s tape every week with a young exec named Brett Veach.

“They love this kid,” Smith said.  “Nobody else is on him like that,” Kingsbury responded.

And as the weeks passed, and Mahomes’s last season at Tech came and went, and that grade
came back, that really didn’t change. The Chiefs were all over him. Few others were.

“I just think there was a lot of bias at that point—the spread offense, the Air-Raid, Texas Tech, all these things,” Kingsbury said. “He didn’t have a winning record in college because we didn’t play good defense. We led the country in scoring with him at Tech, and in yards, third downs and all these categories. And I just think people couldn’t get past that bias.”

So if it wasn’t the funky mechanics, it was the supposedly non-translatable offense. If it wasn’t the hair-on-fire, outside-of-structure style of play, it was the lack of history of any quarterbacks from Tech, Kingsbury included, making it in the pros.

And what Kingsbury told teams wasn’t enough to overcome all that.

“That was interesting. People that I’ve known in the profession forever, I’d tell them, I’ve been around Tom Brady, I’ve seen it at the highest level, and this kid, he does stuff that nobody has ever done,” said Kingsbury, once a teammate of Brady’s in New England.

“Nobody comes close. But I could tell the Chiefs were the ones that kind of got it. I remember
talking to Andy, and I just said, ‘Listen, I don’t know much about football, but I know about
quarterbacks, and I’ve never seen anything like this.’

“If you’re gonna miss on a first-rounder, this kid has a chance to be all-time.”

There are, of course, lessons in here for NFL teams, and Kingsbury having learned them helped lead him to the quarterback he has in Arizona now. He’d trusted that Murray’s otherworldly playmaking ability would be there in the NFL, like it had been in college. So he
advocated for him, and the Cardinals got him last April.

“I just think if you have that ability—and I’ve been very fortunate to be around some of these guys, that extend plays and make plays like nobody else—if they can do that, it may not look the same as being on time and things of that nature,” Kingsbury said. “But if it’s effective, there’s a good chance it’s gonna be effective at the next level.”

Kingsbury saw proof of that when he went to Miami for the Super Bowl, fulfilling a promise
to Mahomes to be there with him if the quarterback ever made it that far.

Kingsbury sat in the stands with Mahomes’s high school coach, Adam Cook, nervous for his
old quarterback. Cook, Kingsbury said, was considerably calmer—and confident that, even
as Mahomes got knocked around by a fierce Niners rush, he’d find a way in the end. We
know now, after an electric fourth quarter, that Cook was right.

And that both were right about the kid who took a little bit of a different road to get to the pinnacle of the sport than most of the greats do, getting there quicker than even Kingsbury
thought he would.

“I mean, I felt really, really good about him being an All-Pro, a franchise guy, highest-paid quarterback of all-time,” Kingsbury said. “I didn’t know it would happen this quickly. I thought there’d be a little more ball security issues, because he does take chances and he does push the ball down the field. But they did such a good job, Andy’s done such a good job building it around him, that it’s just taken off quicker than anybody would’ve imagined.”

And because it has, especially this week, maybe there are a few more guys who are looking
at the quarterback position a little differently than they used to.

***

Skipping bunch of stuff... go to link at top if u want to read

****

WHAT NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT

That last year’s tag-and-trades involving Frank Clark and Dee Ford could have a serious
effect on how teams use the franchise tag overthe next two weeks.

In the past, the Seahawks and Chiefs might’ve approached those situations by conceding the
price was too high, before letting them go to free agency with hopes that a comp pick would
come back a year later. Now? Well, last year proved that teams are more willing to fork over
a pick or picks and a massive contract to get a difference-maker. What’s more, it worked.

Both the Chiefs (who dealt for Clark) and Niners (who got Ford) made it to the Super Bowl.
That’s why, outside of Clowney, I think there’s a chance every other high-end pass-rusher on
an expiring deal—Matthew Judon, Shaq Barrett, Arik Armstead and Yannick Ngaukoe—gets
tagged over the next two weeks. And why I think that will not mean that those guys are off
the market altogether for other team

 

[Thegoatee 1,780]

Hindsight may be what it is, but I think you could see Mahomes had an “it” factor the moment he threw a few preseason passes as a rookie. I saw something I’d never seen in a Chiefs uniform in those meaningless games. Texas Tech was a below average team with a horrible defense and I suspect Mahomes was just under the radar to most college and pro fans, let alone teams.

[kkuenn 3,599]

42 minutes ago, Thegoatee said:

Hindsight may be what it is, but I think you could see Mahomes had an “it” factor the moment he threw a few preseason passes as a rookie. I saw something I’d never seen in a Chiefs uniform in those meaningless games. Texas Tech was a below average team with a horrible defense and I suspect Mahomes was just under the radar to most college and pro fans, let alone teams.

It was because of the offense system he played in at Tech. The stigma was and still is those that dont take snaps under center or in a run and gun type offense won't amount to much at qb.

[Mloe68 1,521]

1 hour ago, Thegoatee said:

Hindsight may be what it is, but I think you could see Mahomes had an “it” factor the moment he threw a few preseason passes as a rookie. I saw something I’d never seen in a Chiefs uniform in those meaningless games. Texas Tech was a below average team with a horrible defense and I suspect Mahomes was just under the radar to most college and pro fans, let alone teams.

Ive heard media guys that saw him practice say it was obvious the kid was special even before he really played

[Adamixoye 604]

How Kliff managed to go 13-16 with Patrick is a mystery.  I know the answer is "defense" but still, come on man.

Also, just thinking about Texas Tech, remember when Baker Mayfield (at TT before OU, remember) was supposed to be the new hotness?  It still feels like we're in a dream with Mahomes, and I hope we don't wake up until 2040 or so.

[oldtimer 8,686]

1 minute ago, Adamixoye said:

How Kliff managed to go 13-16 with Patrick is a mystery.  I know the answer is "defense" but still, come on man.

Also, just thinking about Texas Tech, remember when Baker Mayfield (at TT before OU, remember) was supposed to be the new hotness?  It still feels like we're in a dream with Mahomes, and I hope we don't wake up until 2040 or so.

so you are hoping MVPat  plays for 20 more years??..cool but I'll just hope for a very productive 10-15 more and be happy .. A because he'll be playing and B I'll be alive.

[Adamixoye 604]

2 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

so you are hoping MVPat  plays for 20 more years??..cool but I'll just hope for a very productive 10-15 more and be happy .. A because he'll be playing and B I'll be alive.

I just thought I would shoot for the moon.  Puts him at the age Brady says he wants to play to, and just a touch older than Brady and Brees are now.  2035 is much more realistic, puts him at 40.

[xen 1,010,220]

hell with advances in medicine, maybe he can play til 50.  somebody start pumping him full of CBD, stat!

[oldtimer 8,686]

11 minutes ago, xen said:

hell with advances in medicine, maybe he can play til 50.  somebody start pumping him full of CBD, stat!

believe me it works

[the Warparty 69]

On 2/29/2020 at 9:58 AM, oldtimer said:

believe me it works

Works for me too!

For chronic pain, a Godsend

[moons314 2,463]

On 2/29/2020 at 9:12 AM, Adamixoye said:

How Kliff managed to go 13-16 with Patrick is a mystery.  I know the answer is "defense" but still, come on man.

Also, just thinking about Texas Tech, remember when Baker Mayfield (at TT before OU, remember) was supposed to be the new hotness?  It still feels like we're in a dream with Mahomes, and I hope we don't wake up until 2040 or so.

The Tech defense was dead last in FBS in scoring Pat's last year.  To give some perspective, offensively they scored 43.7 ppg, which was 5th best in college football, while yielding 43.5 which was dead last.  

[kkuenn 3,599]

8 minutes ago, moons314 said:

The Tech defense was dead last in FBS in scoring Pat's last year.  To give some perspective, offensively they scored 43.7 ppg, which was 5th best in college football, while yielding 43.5 which was dead last.  

So pretty much what we saw in 2018 here....

[Adamixoye 604]

19 minutes ago, moons314 said:

The Tech defense was dead last in FBS in scoring Pat's last year.  To give some perspective, offensively they scored 43.7 ppg, which was 5th best in college football, while yielding 43.5 which was dead last.  

Like I said, I know it was the defense but it's still an indictment of the head coach to not have a remotely balanced team when you have a potentially dominant player on one side on the ball. 

12 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

So pretty much what we saw in 2018 here....

For comparison, as bad as we were in 2018 we still went 13-5.

[Mloe68 1,521]

On 2/29/2020 at 9:12 AM, Adamixoye said:

How Kliff managed to go 13-16 with Patrick is a mystery.  I know the answer is "defense" but still, come on man.

Also, just thinking about Texas Tech, remember when Baker Mayfield (at TT before OU, remember) was supposed to be the new hotness?  It still feels like we're in a dream with Mahomes, and I hope we don't wake up until 2040 or so.

I read at one point Texas Tech didn’t have one other NFL player on its roster other than Mahomes. That’s hard to do especially in Texas.  The D was awful but go watch the Oline against LSU. It was a jailbreak on every pass play. Also he inherited an incredibly raw Mahomes.