2020 NFL Free Agency Thread

[xen 1,010,220]

9 minutes ago, Balto said:

I have not seen any information saying GMs see Jones as a one dimensional player or even a GM saying Buckner is the better player of the two.  Can you please link

Because it's not true.

5 minutes ago, jetlord said:

Of course, I don't have such a link.  No GM is going to publicly make such a statement.  That's why I used the word "maybe".  It's natural that home town fans tend to over value home town players.  We all do it.  Watch Chiefs' replays closely.  There are some plays where Jones just isn't part of the action.  Please don't accuse me of putting down Jones or his ability or play.  I'm just trying to point out that KC fans place more value on him that others do. 

Homestly could not disagree more with your position on CJ.  Whether you like grading or analytics, there's no doubt CJ is by far the better player. 

Or just take a look at the money for DTs.  That speaks for itself.  Pass rushers at DT get paid a lot more than run stuffers.  It's not close. 

Overall CJ has a more value.  He's also good but not great against the run and certainly not a liability any more.  That's good enough when you bring elite pass rush.

[DieHard 2,061]

1 hour ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

Bashuad breeland back 1 year 4.5 mil.

what happened to everyone who was sure he was getting a 5 year 50 mil deal?

good news

I thought him and Watson were going to get paid. I thought Robinson would be gone too.

I will take it. I love the guys they have kept. 

[Adamixoye 604]

4 minutes ago, Balto said:

I always saw the Ford and Clark trades as NEEDS and NEEDED to be done.  Were as Ford didn't fit Spags system and we need to trade him away instead of paying him.  Then Clark became a huge need and he paid up for a guy that fit Spags D much better.

I see Jones as if we already had Clark on the roster and we either get a HUGE load for him or he stays under the tag.

Fit doesn't mean that he got good values, it reinforces my point.  He got poor value on Ford and then overpaid on Clark BECAUSE of the fit issues.

[Balto 723]

2 minutes ago, jetlord said:

Links? 😉

 

It's okay to disagree,  That's what this board is all about.  At least we only have two mocks to play with now.  One with Jones and one without.  

I said Fans NOT GMs...

 

[Balto 723]

4 minutes ago, Adamixoye said:

Fit doesn't mean that he got good values, it reinforces my point.  He got poor value on Ford and then overpaid on Clark BECAUSE of the fit issues.

I agree with you.....I'm saying exactly what you saying...

I'm saying Veach should be looking at Jones as HIS "Team must over pay" player like Seattle did with Clark

[Adamixoye 604]

3 minutes ago, Balto said:

I agree with you.....I'm saying exactly what you saying...

I'm saying Veach should be looking at Jones as HIS "Team must over pay" player like Seattle did with Clark

Okay.  That makes more sense, not sure if it's right, but it makes sense.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

I really think they will let Jones play on the franchise tage and see if the cap explodes next year. If so then they can extend him and Patty Cakes.

[Balto 723]

43 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

I really think they will let Jones play on the franchise tage and see if the cap explodes next year. If so then they can extend him and Patty Cakes.

At first I thought there would be a 0% chance of Jones playing on the tag BUT I'm starting to agree with you.

Unless Veach gets an offer he can't pass up Jones stays on teh tag and they see what Cap looks like next year.

I wonder if Veach/KC think IF they are back to back Champs players might start to come for a ring thus making this year and actually winning back to back SBs is all that matters ATM instead of the future.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

1 minute ago, Balto said:

At first I thought there would be a 0% chance of Jones playing on the tag BUT I'm starting to agree with you.

Unless Veach gets an offer he can't pass up Jones stays on teh tag and they see what Cap looks like next year.

I wonder if Veach/KC think IF they are back to back Champs players might start to come for a ring thus making this year and actually winning back to back SBs is all that matters ATM instead of the future.

I mean I'd say there's evidence that's happening already. Every free agent we've signed has been for peanuts.

[Balto 723]

11 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

I mean I'd say there's evidence that's happening already. Every free agent we've signed has been for peanuts.

Guess I'm talking about big fish

[DieHard 2,061]

I would be surprised if there was a trade. I think he plays this year. I would want a top 15 pic to Roll into next season without him.

[sith13 1,746]

Normally a trade would be more likely closer to the draft as teams would get a better idea about where each prospect falls and who's interested in whom. However with the way process is sort of going this year I'm not sure if we can look at the precedence to predict things. Some prospects climbing up the boards due to media hype would definitely increase Jones' value in the trade market for mid to late picking teams.

That being said the lack of such media hype also means we could land a prospect like Conklin who was never considered a high pick until he made GMs fall in love with him during visits and private workouts. This will be an interesting draft with or without a Jones' trade. 

[Balto 723]

19 hours ago, DieHard said:

I would be surprised if there was a trade. I think he plays this year. I would want a top 15 pic to Roll into next season without him.

I agree and would really like to get a starter back with that high draft pick..

Maybe:  Jones/LDT/2nd rounder for Cards #8/Peterson

Maybe:  Jones for Cinzy #33/Geno Atkins/2021 2nd

[jetlord 10,209]

On 4/9/2020 at 2:48 PM, Iluvhouse24 said:

I mean I'd say there's evidence that's happening already. Every free agent we've signed has been for peanuts.

Maybe that because peanuts is about all Veach has to work with. 😉

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

45 minutes ago, jetlord said:

Maybe that because peanuts is about all Veach has to work with. 😉

True, but getting 4 players to sign on the veteran exception was awesome. Especially with Pennel.

[kccrow 529]

On 4/9/2020 at 1:07 PM, xen said:

Because it's not true.

Homestly could not disagree more with your position on CJ.  Whether you like grading or analytics, there's no doubt CJ is by far the better player. 

Or just take a look at the money for DTs.  That speaks for itself.  Pass rushers at DT get paid a lot more than run stuffers.  It's not close. 

Overall CJ has a more value.  He's also good but not great against the run and certainly not a liability any more.  That's good enough when you bring elite pass rush.

What analytics because I couldn't disagree more with this. Buckner is a far superior player against the run and nearly an equal to Jones as a pass rusher, albeit I'm giving Jones an edge. If I'm looking for the more complete player, it's Buckner and it really isn't all that close. 

[Calichief 3,016]

1 hour ago, kccrow said:

What analytics because I couldn't disagree more with this. Buckner is a far superior player against the run and nearly an equal to Jones as a pass rusher, albeit I'm giving Jones an edge. If I'm looking for the more complete player, it's Buckner and it really isn't all that close. 

He’s an incredible player. Been under the radar for the most part. I think you’ll see the Niners dline regress now.

[Balto 723]

2 hours ago, kccrow said:

What analytics because I couldn't disagree more with this. Buckner is a far superior player against the run and nearly an equal to Jones as a pass rusher, albeit I'm giving Jones an edge. If I'm looking for the more complete player, it's Buckner and it really isn't all that close. 

PFF for one....Has Jones way ahead of Buckner every season.

Id say Jones is a better overall player but could go back and fourth with someone why he is.  For you to say “it really isn’t all that close”. Seriously?  Come on.....not even close?  Seems you have other issues with Jones

[Palangi 788]

27 minutes ago, Balto said:

PFF for one....Has Jones way ahead of Buckner every season.

Id say Jones is a better overall player but could go back and fourth with someone why he is.  For you to say “it really isn’t all that close”. Seriously?  Come on.....not even close?  Seems you have other issues with Jones

No doubt Jones is the better player.  If I had to choose top have one of them,  I'm taking Jones easily.  

[kkuenn 3,597]

2 minutes ago, Palangi said:

No doubt Jones is the better player.  If I had to choose top have one of them,  I'm taking Jones easily.  

Agreed. Between the two I would take Jones too. Not because he is a Chief, he is though the better player.

[Lamardirts 2,114]

3 hours ago, kccrow said:

What analytics because I couldn't disagree more with this. Buckner is a far superior player against the run and nearly an equal to Jones as a pass rusher, albeit I'm giving Jones an edge. If I'm looking for the more complete player, it's Buckner and it really isn't all that close. 

Who has had the better dline around them?  It matters.  

[xen 1,010,220]

15 hours ago, kccrow said:

What analytics because I couldn't disagree more with this. Buckner is a far superior player against the run and nearly an equal to Jones as a pass rusher, albeit I'm giving Jones an edge. If I'm looking for the more complete player, it's Buckner and it really isn't all that close. 

Buckner is not on CJs level as a pass rusher.  He's been benefiting from an elite dline and has a much higher cleanup rate than guys like CJ and Donald, meaning he's not creating the pressure, he's cleaning up after someone else created the pressure.   CJ also has proven scheme versatlility, whereas Buckner does not.  As well, positional versatility, in that CJ has done it inside and out.  When SF wanted to move a tackle outside there's a reason they would let Armstead roam.   Or look at something like pressure rate.  CJ is the only other guy in the same hemisphere as Donald.  

Here's one source but feel free to pick your own source.

Pff:

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-why-the-san-francisco-49ers-trade-of-deforest-buckner-to-the-indianapolis-colts-was-a-sensational-move

Buckner has been a good player over the course of his four-year career with the ‘Niners. He owns PFF grade ranks of 31st, 17th, 25th and ninth and has been an above-average player against the run and getting after the quarterback in the pass-rush. Key words being “above average.”

Buckner isn’t the elite pass-rusher many have made him out to be. In his four seasons in the NFL, Buckner has generated pressure on 10.6% of his pass-rush reps, which is a solid rate that ranks 12th among interior defensive linemen. But more than 27% of those pressures were from a cleanup or unblocked, which isn’t nearly as bad as some interior pass-rushers but isn’t nearly as good as the elite guys. Donald owns the lowest rate at 12.5%, with Chris Jones the second-lowest at 15.6%.

It's true that Buckner has accumulated the third-most sacks since he came into the league. But sacks are one of the last things you should look at when evaluating a pass-rusher. Second, not all sacks are created equal. Consider the following:

Most sacks that were a cleanup/unblocked since 2016 among interior pass-rushers

Player	Sacks
DeForest Buckner	16
Cameron Heyward	16
Jurrell Casey	15
Kenny Clark	14
Denico Autry	13

(Note: PFF does not award half sacks like the basic box score.)

There have been 71 interior defensive linemen to log at least 1,500 snaps since 2016. Buckner ranks 16th among that group in PFF WAR.

[kccrow 529]

I put, literally, zero credence in PFF. If you're relying on them, you're talking to the wrong guy. 

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

5 minutes ago, kccrow said:

I put, literally, zero credence in PFF. If you're relying on them, you're talking to the wrong guy. 

I agree pff sucks now, they were decent the first couple years they existed but are now a joke.

however my two cents jones is on a higher tier athletically than buckner by my eye test. I think jones is the better player and I don’t think its that close.

what i really think is funny is how the 49ers let buckner walk in large part because of the resources they wasted on dee ford. They should have cut ford this offseason and just admitted the mistake

[kccrow 529]

6 minutes ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

I agree pff sucks now, they were decent the first couple years they existed but are now a joke.

however my two cents jones is on a higher tier athletically than buckner by my eye test. I think jones is the better player and I don’t think its that close.

what i really think is funny is how the 49ers let buckner walk in large part because of the resources they wasted on dee ford. They should have cut ford this offseason and just admitted the mistake

Jones is a little better pass rusher and he's quicker off the initial snap. I said he's a slightly better pass rusher in the original post I made. His snap quickness is supported by the better 10-yard split he had at the combine over Buckner. However, Jones is not better athletically in just about every other measurable. They are pretty neck-and-neck.

Buckner gets pressure, hits on the QB, and sacks and he does so at rates that aren't that much less than Jones regardless of whether some British guys think he does so as a result of "cleanup activity." Regardless, if I'm in a pass-rushing situation, I want Jones.

All that said, Jones still pales in comparison to Buckner in run support. Statistics support it, the eyeball test more than supports it. Jones, in run support, isn't very good. He routinely loses gap integrity and is out of position and produces tackles at half the rate of Buckner. This is what makes Buckner such a more complete player. If I were to choose between the two players, I'd take Buckner for this simple reason. He's far superior in run defense and still produces pressure in the passing game.

For those that want to say Buckner had a better supporting cast, I call horseshit. When has Jones ever not had great edge rushers around him? Houston, Hali, Ford, and Clark all must be dog shit.

I don't dislike Jones and I like him here but I'm also one to give credit where it's due, and Buckner is a damned good player.