Chiefs run defense in 2020

[Mloe68 1,521]

29 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

Lamar Jackson shit the bed like a nursing home patient on lasagna night in that game.  52% completion percentage and the two costly picks.  It was sad to watch frankly as a fan of good football.  I wanted him to do well, but he just couldn't get it together. 

I think he’s simply an average NFL passer that struggles as most do when opponents dictate play and know what’s coming. He’s great with a lead though. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

2 hours ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

I just do not understand this line of thinking. The dude impressed our scouts and GM enough that they traded up to get him in rd 2. He plays 1 year completely out of position working under a crappy defensive coordinator and everyone gives up. 

He's a 2nd round pick. He should be EXPECTED to contribute in a scheme much more suited to his skill set and one he played in at Ole Miss.

The way Daly and Spags saved Tanoh and Ogbahs careers, I wouldn’t bet against them in this spot with a player who clearly has some talent and played completely out of position as a rookie.  Will Speaks come into camp 50 pounds over weight is my concern.  

[azchief21 5,278]

4 hours ago, dhitter said:

Here's a question I find interesting. Who will have the bigger impact on the Chiefs defense this year ...Breeland Speaks, Taco Charlton or Willie Gay?

 

I would say Gay .......NTTAWWT

[Lamardirts 2,114]

1 hour ago, Mloe68 said:

The way Daly and Spags saved Tanoh and Ogbahs careers, I wouldn’t bet against them in this spot with a player who clearly has some talent and played completely out of position as a rookie.  Will Speaks come into camp 50 pounds over weight is my concern.  

That is my concern.  I have my doubts he will too.  Last year he had a great opportunity with a new DC and the chance to play his natural position and he comes win with a big muffin top.   If he comes in ready to roll then I agree that Daly/Spags can turn his career around.  Would be nice to have another penetrating DT.  Do we keep 5?   Pennel, Nnadi, Saunders, Jones and Speaks?  Maybe Speaks versatility can save him a spot, but Kpass ability to do the same doesn’t help his case.     Clark, Kpass, Okafor, Taco, Ward and Harris all fighting for what?  5 spots as well.  He better come ready or his butt is gonna get cut!

[dhitter 1,424]

3 hours ago, Lamardirts said:

That is my concern.  I have my doubts he will too.  Last year he had a great opportunity with a new DC and the chance to play his natural position and he comes win with a big muffin top.   If he comes in ready to roll then I agree that Daly/Spags can turn his career around.  Would be nice to have another penetrating DT.  Do we keep 5?   Pennel, Nnadi, Saunders, Jones and Speaks?  Maybe Speaks versatility can save him a spot, but Kpass ability to do the same doesn’t help his case.     Clark, Kpass, Okafor, Taco, Ward and Harris all fighting for what?  5 spots as well.  He better come ready or his butt is gonna get cut!

So focused on Speaks being injured I had all but forgotten he was out of shape coming into camp last year. Dude better have been shown some tough love and told "look, we are SB Champs and our defense is ascending. You show up to camp in shape and ready to work your ass off or you can add your name to the list of high draft picks everyone has forgotten about."

[Mloe68 1,521]

3 hours ago, Lamardirts said:

That is my concern.  I have my doubts he will too.  Last year he had a great opportunity with a new DC and the chance to play his natural position and he comes win with a big muffin top.   If he comes in ready to roll then I agree that Daly/Spags can turn his career around.  Would be nice to have another penetrating DT.  Do we keep 5?   Pennel, Nnadi, Saunders, Jones and Speaks?  Maybe Speaks versatility can save him a spot, but Kpass ability to do the same doesn’t help his case.     Clark, Kpass, Okafor, Taco, Ward and Harris all fighting for what?  5 spots as well.  He better come ready or his butt is gonna get cut!

No doubt they are deep in the Dline and took on another reclamation project with Taco. Speaks is talented enough if he comes in serious he will make the team and I’d bet on him being productive. If they sense he’s not taking it seriously I’d agree he could be cut quickly. We are in too good of a spot now to not just admit mistakes and move on. 

[Lamardirts 2,114]

I forgot about Danna too, even though I project him more as  DE/hybrid.   If my memory serves me correct Spags liked Kpass more on the interior than on the edge.   Like y'all said, he better come in ready to roll.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

14 hours ago, Mloe68 said:

No doubt they are deep in the Dline and took on another reclamation project with Taco. Speaks is talented enough if he comes in serious he will make the team and I’d bet on him being productive. If they sense he’s not taking it seriously I’d agree he could be cut quickly. We are in too good of a spot now to not just admit mistakes and move on. 

I dont think theres any way this guy is released when he hasn't had a full offseason to compete for a spot in a defense with an even front. And this offseason is abbreviated as well. They release him and watch him go be productive elsewhere because he wasn't given time to grow. 

People talk about him like he is a bum. He showed up out of shape last year and that's a red flag. But the only actual game film we have of him is playing a position he had zero business competing at. Him and Kpass at OLB in a 34 is still laughable to me.

It should never have happened but Reid wanted to give his pal Sutton another year at DC. I wouldn't trust Sutton to house train a puppy, let alone get a 285 lb man to be a productive edge rusher in a 34.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

On 5/19/2020 at 10:30 AM, Adamixoye said:

Also:  the importance of run defense continues to be overrated.

It's true.  When you are an offensive juggernaut, teams cannot afford to try to run on you very much.  It takes too long to score enough points that way to keep up, and the running game can't be used to catch up in the second half of games.  Still, the Chiefs have to continue improving.  I think Gay will make a difference. Further development and familiarity with Spag's system of speed, flying around, disguising covereages, and gang tackling will further aid the run defense.  Just speeding up the second level with faster linebackers will be huge. Finding another linebacker who is fast and close lanes will be needed to become a top five defense.  But that is something we have proven we don't need to be as a team that can score almost at will.  After all, we won the SB.

[Adamixoye 604]

On 5/20/2020 at 10:13 AM, reesebobby said:

I was watching a breakdown of the Super Bowl 2-3 chip jet wasp and they said on 3rd and 15 Mahomes passer rating is something like 96.0 and the league average is something like 4.9.  I don't remember the exact number but that's pretty close.  I have gotten where I'm happier at 3rd and 7 instead of 3rd and 3. 

Here's one version of this that I've seen (X-posted from another thread):

 

[Mloe68 1,521]

17 hours ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

I dont think theres any way this guy is released when he hasn't had a full offseason to compete for a spot in a defense with an even front. And this offseason is abbreviated as well. They release him and watch him go be productive elsewhere because he wasn't given time to grow. 

People talk about him like he is a bum. He showed up out of shape last year and that's a red flag. But the only actual game film we have of him is playing a position he had zero business competing at. Him and Kpass at OLB in a 34 is still laughable to me.

It should never have happened but Reid wanted to give his pal Sutton another year at DC. I wouldn't trust Sutton to house train a puppy, let alone get a 285 lb man to be a productive edge rusher in a 34.

Writing him off especially after what we’ve already seen from Daly and Spags makes no sense. He’s a talented kid who can help if motivated. But if he comes to camp 50 pounds overweight I also think they would question that motivation and put him on thin ice. 

[dhitter 1,424]

On 5/21/2020 at 11:13 AM, Fmbl2187 said:

It's true.  When you are an offensive juggernaut, teams cannot afford to try to run on you very much.  It takes too long to score enough points that way to keep up, and the running game can't be used to catch up in the second half of games.  Still, the Chiefs have to continue improving.  I think Gay will make a difference. Further development and familiarity with Spag's system of speed, flying around, disguising covereages, and gang tackling will further aid the run defense.  Just speeding up the second level with faster linebackers will be huge. Finding another linebacker who is fast and close lanes will be needed to become a top five defense.  But that is something we have proven we don't need to be as a team that can score almost at will.  After all, we won the SB.

Problem with KC last year is the slow starts to games played into other team's hands...for a while. Simply put, the Chiefs had too many slow starts. 10-0 to the Raiders week 2, 6-0 to the Ravens in week 3, 10-0 to the Lions in week 4. Fortunately we have the type of team that has proven it can come back from a deficit. But why should they have to? What was it about last year's team that made them start so slow especially when you figure the first 15 plays are usually scripted. You cannot keep living on the edge of the cliff. Eventually you fall off. Run defense will become less of a factor if the Chiefs can jump up a couple scores early.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

13 hours ago, dhitter said:

Problem with KC last year is the slow starts to games played into other team's hands...for a while. Simply put, the Chiefs had too many slow starts. 10-0 to the Raiders week 2, 6-0 to the Ravens in week 3, 10-0 to the Lions in week 4. Fortunately we have the type of team that has proven it can come back from a deficit. But why should they have to? What was it about last year's team that made them start so slow especially when you figure the first 15 plays are usually scripted. You cannot keep living on the edge of the cliff. Eventually you fall off. Run defense will become less of a factor if the Chiefs can jump up a couple scores early.

That's true.  Of course, our D was just learning Spag's system and did not jell until the second half of the season.  That could be a major reason why opponents were able to score early on us.  After all, with Mahomes, every team had a  desperate  game plan to get off to an early lead against our supposedly helpless  defense or fall hopelessly behind. So, they threw the book at us early in games.  By midseason, teams could not really accomplish that anymore (except in the playoffs LOL, but those were the really, really good offenses).  It all paid off in the end, didn't it?  I think it helped us learn Spag's system quicker.  It also help hone the offense's mindset to have confidence throughout the late part of games that they would prevail, no matter what.  That sure proved itself in the playoffs.

[Adamixoye 604]

13 hours ago, dhitter said:

Problem with KC last year is the slow starts to games played into other team's hands...for a while. Simply put, the Chiefs had too many slow starts. 10-0 to the Raiders week 2, 6-0 to the Ravens in week 3, 10-0 to the Lions in week 4. Fortunately we have the type of team that has proven it can come back from a deficit. But why should they have to? What was it about last year's team that made them start so slow especially when you figure the first 15 plays are usually scripted. You cannot keep living on the edge of the cliff. Eventually you fall off. Run defense will become less of a factor if the Chiefs can jump up a couple scores early.

I don't have the stats in front of me, but I recall that in 2018 we were one of the best teams in scoring on early drives.  In 2019 that dropped off significantly.

I think random variance and regression were probably the biggest factors, along with the other things that caused our offense to struggle like injuries.  In any case I don't have a lot of concern that this is somehow part of who we are going forward.

[jetlord 10,207]

Is it possible that the slow starts in 2019 compared to 2018 is that other teams were no longer unprepared to face the Mahomes type offense?  They knew what the Chiefs' offense could do and geared up for it.  Then Reid made adjustments and they got rolling after the first quarter.  Also the interior line was weaker in 2019 so the offense had to adjust to quicker releases and more scrambles. 

[Lamardirts 2,114]

7 hours ago, Adamixoye said:

I don't have the stats in front of me, but I recall that in 2018 we were one of the best teams in scoring on early drives.  In 2019 that dropped off significantly.

I think random variance and regression were probably the biggest factors, along with the other things that caused our offense to struggle like injuries.  In any case I don't have a lot of concern that this is somehow part of who we are going forward.

I do think weak interior Oline play hurt but for a fourth of the year we were missing our most dangerous wr and our LT.   But teams were ready and they all wanted a crack at Pat.   After we made adjustments we did just fine.   

[Handswarmer 645]

On 5/20/2020 at 3:47 PM, Mloe68 said:

I think he’s simply an average NFL passer that struggles as most do when opponents dictate play and know what’s coming. He’s great with a lead though. 

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-10-qbs-under-pressure-ryan-tannehill-derek-carr-shine

 

[reesebobby 5,661]

13 minutes ago, Handswarmer said:

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-10-qbs-under-pressure-ryan-tannehill-derek-carr-shine

 

I'm not taking sides here because I have not looked up the stats and I'm not gonna.  But being good under pressure is different than what Mloe said.  People may actually drop back 7 into coverage in obvious passing downs vs creating pressure against a guy like Lamar.  That's probably what I would do. But with the year he had, he may have good stats in that regard also.  

[TomahawkChop 255]

3 hours ago, Handswarmer said:

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-10-qbs-under-pressure-ryan-tannehill-derek-carr-shine

 

Honest question here, Hands. If you had a choice, which MVP would you choose. Forget any loyalties and assume you could pick either. 

 

Lamar is a freak unlike anything I recall at the QB spot and that includes guys like Cunningham and Vick. Mahomes has arm talent, vision and instincts like I’ve never seen from anyone. Both are young and still ascending. 

 

My my main concern with Lamar is his running. Ny gut tells me Pat will still be playing 5-10 years after Lamar can no longer run when injuries start to occur the more hits he takes begin to mount. 

 

Either way, the next 5-10 years should provide both our teams many head to head battles. 

[Adamixoye 604]

3 hours ago, TomahawkChop said:

Honest question here, Hands. If you had a choice, which MVP would you choose. Forget any loyalties and assume you could pick either. 

 

Lamar is a freak unlike anything I recall at the QB spot and that includes guys like Cunningham and Vick. Mahomes has arm talent, vision and instincts like I’ve never seen from anyone. Both are young and still ascending. 

 

My my main concern with Lamar is his running. Ny gut tells me Pat will still be playing 5-10 years after Lamar can no longer run when injuries start to occur the more hits he takes begin to mount. 

 

Either way, the next 5-10 years should provide both our teams many head to head battles. 

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but a few thoughts:

(1) League history shows a QB being able to run is definitely a weapon, but it also shows that a top-tier weapon like 2019 Lamar never lasts that long, whether it's due to injury, the natural aging curve, or the league adjusting.  10 years from now, Pat is still going to have what makes him great and ultimately be Pat (or better) assuming health.  Even assuming reasonable health, Lamar is unlikely to be the same runner as he was in 2019 and he'll have to evolve as a passer in order to stay at the top of the league rather than regressing.

(2) All small sample sizes, but right now there is evidence that:

• You need to tailor your offense significantly to maximize Lamar's skills, while Pat would certainly thrive in almost any modern offense (Reid's offense still helps him, though).
• Pat is much better in the playoffs than Lamar, and it's not close
• Pat is much better at making an in-game comeback than Lamar, and it's not close

Nothing Lamar couldn't theoretically turnaround, but we'll need to see it first.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

I agree totally about running QB's.  Only dominant for a few years, and then injuries and slowing happen.  His game depends on it.  Mahomes is a once-in-a-generation talent and has not only the arm, vision, and instincts, but the intelligence and mental processing quickness and defense reading abilities that are otherworldly.  He is also a total leader and is inspirational on the field and in community relations.  I know nothing about Jackson's intelligence.  It might be just as amazing as Mahomes, but Mahomes has used his great intellect to incorporate the mind and playbook of Andy Reid.  I would take Mahomes in virtually any category.

I suffered for decades waiting for the Chiefs to draft a dominating QB, but never in a million years did I think we would land someone who likely will turn out to be the greatest of all time.

[reesebobby 5,661]

Lamar is basically a poor man's RG3.  

[Lamardirts 2,114]

1 hour ago, reesebobby said:

Lamar is basically a poor man's RG3.  

Um, maybe the other way around.   Lamar is a very good qb.  His skill set is different than Mahomes.   Injuries are a bigger concern for him and his skill set than for Mahomes and he isn't in the same hemisphere as a passer but LJ is a dynamic runner and in a different hemisphere in than regards.   They are both exciting and good for the league.   

[xen 1,010,219]

2 hours ago, reesebobby said:

Lamar is basically a poor man's RG3.  

I wouldnt go that far but Lamar is a hell of a running back.

[reesebobby 5,661]

First off, I kid because I like to fuck with Hands a little.  It's fun because he gets so mad when you say anything bad about the Ravens.  That said, as a rookie RG3 inherited a 5-11 Redskins team and rushed for over 800 yards, threw 20 TDs to just 5 picks and took them to the playoff for the first time in quite a while.  He was drafted 2nd overall and there were people that thought he had an outside chance of being number 1 overall.  And then he got hurt and wasn't as mobile.  He was never the same passer again. I think you can see some parallels in their games.  RG3 was probably a better pure passer and not as good of a rusher.