Le'Veon Bell?

[jetlord 10,209]

24 minutes ago, Adamixoye said:

4.0 YPC (team) still not great.  I don't remember all the drives but there's no reason to be running on 2nd and 25, for example.

You're right about that, but overall, I think the running was a good complement to the Chiefs quick passing game.  Can't complain about five TDs and another that should have happened in the end of the half. 

[Lamardirts 2,114]

2 hours ago, AFCWEST said:

Bell sucks. Please stop taking plays from CEH. Bell has lost it. 

I don't think he sucks.  He is a very patient runner and if our Oline doesn't block well, which happens frequently then he might get tackled in the back field.  Where he is a stud is as a wr.  He's better than CEH in that area.  I'm glad he's on this team.   

[sith13 1,746]

5 hours ago, AFCWEST said:

Bell sucks. Please stop taking plays from CEH. Bell has lost it. 

CEH isn't really setting the world on fire, only 3 games with decent yards per carry. He'll get better as he's still just a rookie but a change of pace is definitely needed with an OL like this. 

[robgar 1,046]

2nd and 25 was good for 12 yards.. cutting it in half.. not so bad.. 

[mex 65,581]

6 hours ago, jetlord said:

Bell did what the Chiefs brought him in for.  CEH got a good share of runs and gained about 4.9/carry.  He can't carry it every time.  I'd rather see Bell than Williams in most cases of relieving CEH.  The big question is how the Chiefs rushed so well behind that sorry line.

exactly right... CEH is still the #1 go-to

we need Bell who is a legit threat at any time and can catch the ball which fits our offense perfectly

he's not a 1000 yd back but he'll produce when needed

did Bell even get a carry in the 1st Q? 

[oldtimer 8,686]

CEH will most likely hit his rookie "wall" on the down the line..it happens in a 16+ game season & as time goes on and Bell learns the playbook he'll see more touches. His presence alone commands attention whether  he touches the ball or not and his blocking is certainly a big +

[Adamixoye 604]

2 hours ago, robgar said:

2nd and 25 was good for 12 yards.. cutting it in half.. not so bad.. 

It looked like 12 yards to me in real time, but then they listed it as 3rd and 14 so officially I think it was only 11.

Regardless, it was a good run and Bell's best of the night (even better than the TD).  The issue, though, is that you're far more likely to pick up the 1st giving Mahomes two shots to get 25 yards than one shot to get 14.

A play that looks good in isolation can still be the wrong, inefficient play.

[reesebobby 5,662]

1 hour ago, Adamixoye said:

It looked like 12 yards to me in real time, but then they listed it as 3rd and 14 so officially I think it was only 11.

Regardless, it was a good run and Bell's best of the night (even better than the TD).  The issue, though, is that you're far more likely to pick up the 1st giving Mahomes two shots to get 25 yards than one shot to get 14.

A play that looks good in isolation can still be the wrong, inefficient play.

I wouldn't say that  running the ball 2nd and 25 on your own 10 yard line is wrong or inefficient.  Especially after the defense just got off the field after a 7 minute drive.  I would agree with you that if we were on our own 40, you take a couple shots.  And I wouldn't have been mad if they threw a couple times, but that doesn't mean it was wrong to create some space and run some clock in that situation. 

[ChiefThunder 153]

2 hours ago, oldtimer said:

CEH will most likely hit his rookie "wall" on the down the line..it happens in a 16+ game season & as time goes on and Bell learns the playbook he'll see more touches. His presence alone commands attention whether  he touches the ball or not and his blocking is certainly a big +

I disagree. CEH had less than 10 carries the past 3 games since Bell's arrival heading into our bye week. I think CEH is rested which in turn helps him to not hit that rookie "wall". Plus...I don't think think any RB can hit that rookie wall playing for Reid the way he abandons the run at times. 

[Adamixoye 604]

1 hour ago, reesebobby said:

I wouldn't say that  running the ball 2nd and 25 on your own 10 yard line is wrong or inefficient.  Especially after the defense just got off the field after a 7 minute drive.  I would agree with you that if we were on our own 40, you take a couple shots.  And I wouldn't have been mad if they threw a couple times, but that doesn't mean it was wrong to create some space and run some clock in that situation. 

I see a little bit what you're saying, but a completed pass in that situation does both of those things (runs the clock and gives the team space).  What gives the defense the best breather and space is to get a first down.  The 12 yards we got were close to a best case scenario for that play, the chances we only get 4 yards like we did the rest of the night was far greater.  I would have to look at the details to know for sure that two chances to get 25 yards has a higher probability of success than one to get 14 yards.  (Just on the surface it's obvious the answer is yes, but there might be a subtlety that I'm missing.)

Looking at the decision process rather than the results, it's pretty clear that letting Mahomes pass is preferable to our average run.  The point is that the best case scenario of that run, which was pretty unlikely, is only debatably as good as giving Mahomes another pass attempt.  So the decision to pass instead of run, prior to the play, really is pretty clear.

[oldtimer 8,686]

34 minutes ago, ChiefThunder said:

I disagree. CEH had less than 10 carries the past 3 games since Bell's arrival heading into our bye week. I think CEH is rested which in turn helps him to not hit that rookie "wall". Plus...I don't think think any RB can hit that rookie wall playing for Reid the way he abandons the run at times. 

you make a compelling point

[reesebobby 5,662]

7 minutes ago, Adamixoye said:

I see a little bit what you're saying, but a completed pass in that situation does both of those things (runs the clock and gives the team space).  What gives the defense the best breather and space is to get a first down.  The 12 yards we got were close to a best case scenario for that play, the chances we only get 4 yards like we did the rest of the night was far greater.  I would have to look at the details to know for sure that two chances to get 25 yards has a higher probability of success than one to get 14 yards.  (Just on the surface it's obvious the answer is yes, but there might be a subtlety that I'm missing.)

Looking at the decision process rather than the results, it's pretty clear that letting Mahomes pass is preferable to our average run.  The point is that the best case scenario of that run, which was pretty unlikely, is only debatably as good as giving Mahomes another pass attempt.  So the decision to pass instead of run, prior to the play, really is pretty clear.

All true.  But an incomplete pass stops the clock, gains nothing and puts you in a 3rd and 25 from your own 10.  I don't think putting the ball in Pat's hands is wrong, but I can't really criticize running the ball once in that situation either. 

[Adamixoye 604]

He could have also thrown an interception, if we're looking at worst case scenarios.  But then again there could have been a fumble on the handoff, or the RB could have been stuffed for little to no gain, or a small loss, and you're in the same position as the incomplete pass.  So I'm talking in average expected outcomes, not worst or best case scenarios.

Bleeding the clock was irrelevant at that point in the game.  The actual real life time to give the defense a breather is the same whether it's a pass or run.  Best strategy is to give yourself the best chance for a first down.

[reesebobby 5,662]

8 minutes ago, Adamixoye said:

He could have also thrown an interception, if we're looking at worst case scenarios.  But then again there could have been a fumble on the handoff, or the RB could have been stuffed for little to no gain, or a small loss, and you're in the same position as the incomplete pass.  So I'm talking in average expected outcomes, not worst or best case scenarios.

Bleeding the clock was irrelevant at that point in the game.  The actual real life time to give the defense a breather is the same whether it's a pass or run.  Best strategy is to give yourself the best chance for a first down.

I don't think an incompletion is "worst case" scenario.  It happens 1/3 of the time.  It's a fairly common phenomena compared to fumbling a handoff.  And bleeding clock is absolutely not irrelevant in that situation.  40 seconds is huge at the end of a half and could absolutely be the difference between a field goal attempt and a touchdown.   Whether you pass or run, your chances of converting 2nd and 25 are poor.  You have to balance field position, clock, space for the expected punt and also attempt to get the first down. 

[Adamixoye 604]

What would you put the odds of us getting stuffed for no more than a yard or two at?  I would say that's easily 1/3.  So that's pretty directly comparable to an interception.

If we bleed extra time before the half there who knows what happens.  Maybe it puts the Raiders in position to go for it based on their position rather than giving us more than a minute for the final drive that ends in an interception.  Just too many variables, I think other than protecting the ball that running an extra 40 seconds off the clock is literally the last priority.

[reesebobby 5,662]

1 minute ago, Adamixoye said:

What would you put the odds of us getting stuffed for no more than a yard or two at?  I would say that's easily 1/3.  So that's pretty directly comparable to an interception.

If we bleed extra time before the half there who knows what happens.  Maybe it puts the Raiders in position to go for it based on their position rather than giving us more than a minute for the final drive that ends in an interception.  Just too many variables, I think other than protecting the ball that running an extra 40 seconds off the clock is literally the last priority.

I'm not saying that you absolutely run the ball there.  But I think it's pretty hard to call it a mistake. 

[Adamixoye 604]

Well, agree to disagree I suppose.  I think it was a clear mistake in process; it was less of a mistake in result since the run was unexpectedly above average.

[reesebobby 5,662]

Just now, Adamixoye said:

Well, agree to disagree I suppose.  I think it was a clear mistake in process; it was less of a mistake in result since the run was unexpectedly above average.

fair enough. 

[jetlord 10,209]

5 hours ago, mex said:

 

did Bell even get a carry in the 1st Q? 

IIRC, the Chiefs only had one series in the first quarter.  I'm still shaking my head at a Reid coached team having TWO 14 play drives for TDs in one game.  They sure learned how to counter the Raider pass rush.  Just don't throw deep. 

[azchief21 5,278]

I'd like to see what Bell & CEH could do with a decent O Line

[KC Warpaint 3,234]

4 hours ago, azchief21 said:

I'd like to see what Bell & CEH could do with a decent O Line

so would Bell 🤨

[Holmes4six! 968]

8 hours ago, jetlord said:

IIRC, the Chiefs only had one series in the first quarter.  I'm still shaking my head at a Reid coached team having TWO 14 play drives for TDs in one game.  They sure learned how to counter the Raider pass rush.  Just don't throw deep. 

This is the way we need to play when teams drop into coverage and take away down the filed throws. . CEH and Bell need to a big part of our attack. I like CEH more as it seems the offence is in a bit better rythem with him. Reid dinking  and dunking, running the ball is our best way to help our defense as well. 
it’s Interesting... did spags play defense to eliminate raiders deep plays? I did not see one where in week 5 there was 5 plays over 40 yds. 
maybe this is why we couldn’t get off the filed on third down. Don’t know. 

[robgar 1,046]

19 hours ago, Adamixoye said:

It looked like 12 yards to me in real time, but then they listed it as 3rd and 14 so officially I think it was only 11.

Regardless, it was a good run and Bell's best of the night (even better than the TD).  The issue, though, is that you're far more likely to pick up the 1st giving Mahomes two shots to get 25 yards than one shot to get 14.

A play that looks good in isolation can still be the wrong, inefficient play.

you picked up half on 2nd down.. this is exactly what you needed to do..

taking two shots downfield, is not the right call.. as thats two shots with linebackers in full blitz mode. ...

 

If you can catch the pass blitz on the outside, with a run like that you are almost guarenteed into the second level.. no that was not a bad call..

 

[Adamixoye 604]

3 hours ago, robgar said:

you picked up half on 2nd down.. this is exactly what you needed to do..

taking two shots downfield, is not the right call.. as thats two shots with linebackers in full blitz mode. ...

 

If you can catch the pass blitz on the outside, with a run like that you are almost guarenteed into the second level.. no that was not a bad call..

 

I'm not convinced the 11 yard run was very likely, even in that situation.  Like I said, looking at the process prior to the run, two shots would have had a much higher (though still low) probability of getting a first down.  The result of the run comes close to leveling the playing field on that decision.

[robgar 1,046]

well, you see... we all agree that Andy Reid is a brilliant offensive Coach, and that Eric is one as well.. 

in my mind the run would give us the higher chance of success, overall than two passes in that situation. 

a single play call taken in isolation is meaningless.. Personally I think that call at that time, in that game.

with what had been done previously made it a near perfect call, with a chance of breaking for even more yards than it did. 

You on the other hand are free to disagree with me.