Chiefs v Broncos II game thread

[Calichief 3,016]

3 minutes ago, Adamixoye said:

I don't think that's going to fix anything.  We just don't have the horses for power running.

Everyone got upset at Andy for being "cute" but those plays were scoring earlier in the season, basically until the failed Kelce attempt last week.  Everything went wrong tonight on that front.  It's concerning but there is a chance it's a fluke.

If you are going to call a running play, call it with some conviction, not just to say one was called...

it’s ok to run a play for 3 or 4 yards 

[Adamixoye 604]

I don't see what that has to do with what we're talking about.  Conviction doesn't gain yards.

Honestly, we need to consider letting Patrick sneak again when it's just one yard.

[Calichief 3,016]

2 hours ago, Thegoatee said:

How much money has Frank been paid this year for 22 tackles and 4 sacks?

Bout 20 30 mil probably 

[sith13 1,746]

Defense isn't good but this one is one the offense and Reid. Since we cannot/do not run teams realized that they need to take away the deep ball and focus on stopping the underneath receivers. We have been one play away from losing way too many times to win the SB. If we don't run the ball we cannot rip any decent gains and even if we don't get any decent yardage as long as it's enough to move the chains within 3 plays that's something to consider. Otherwise passing won't continue to cut it against tougher opponents. 

Another thing is Hardman played some decent football when given the chance, afterwards he has been a 1-2 target guy again, not sure if it's Mahomes or Reid that doesn't like Hardman but why did we spend a high pick on a guy if we are not going to play him. Not to mention he was decent when used. 

[kkuenn 3,597]

58 minutes ago, sith13 said:

Defense isn't good but this one is one the offense and Reid. Since we cannot/do not run teams realized that they need to take away the deep ball and focus on stopping the underneath receivers. We have been one play away from losing way too many times to win the SB. If we don't run the ball we cannot rip any decent gains and even if we don't get any decent yardage as long as it's enough to move the chains within 3 plays that's something to consider. Otherwise passing won't continue to cut it against tougher opponents. 

Another thing is Hardman played some decent football when given the chance, afterwards he has been a 1-2 target guy again, not sure if it's Mahomes or Reid that doesn't like Hardman but why did we spend a high pick on a guy if we are not going to play him. Not to mention he was decent when used. 

Did you see Mahomes telling Hardman on the route he ran where it was pass defended? I don't think his routes are crisp enough right now and he needs to learn that. To be where Mahomes expects him to be. If he gets better I am sure more will be thrown his way and more plays added for him too.

 

[sith13 1,746]

7 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

Did you see Mahomes telling Hardman on the route he ran where it was pass defended? I don't think his routes are crisp enough right now and he needs to learn that. To be where Mahomes expects him to be. If he gets better I am sure more will be thrown his way and more plays added for him too.

 

Yep, not sure when he'll be ready though. If they use simple routes for him he seems to be doing fine, that could be just the defense ignoring him as it was only a couple games but who knows. However other than the DMC type backfield roles Hardman seems to be overlooked way too much for a recent high pick.

Hill used to be terrible with routes as a rookie but Reid designed plays to utilize his abilities back then, right now I'm not sure if he's spending any time for Hardman.

[Lamardirts 2,114]

16 minutes ago, sith13 said:

Defense isn't good but this one is one the offense and Reid. Since we cannot/do not run teams realized that they need to take away the deep ball and focus on stopping the underneath receivers. We have been one play away from losing way too many times to win the SB. If we don't run the ball we cannot rip any decent gains and even if we don't get any decent yardage as long as it's enough to move the chains within 3 plays that's something to consider. Otherwise passing won't continue to cut it against tougher opponents. 

Another thing is Hardman played some decent football when given the chance, afterwards he has been a 1-2 target guy again, not sure if it's Mahomes or Reid that doesn't like Hardman but why did we spend a high pick on a guy if we are not going to play him. Not to mention he was decent when used. 

Agree the D played relatively well.   I think Spags is going to look back on this season and wished he would have dumped Gay early on at Dime backer, and live with the consequences.   His decision to play Ben and keep playing him and use the excuse that he's the more cerebral player is like rolling Stephen Hawking out there and claiming because he knows where to be that means it helps the team more.   

We still don't utilize the backs in the passing game.  Bell had an easy first down and Mahomes went deep to Tyreek.  Which is fine but on 3rd down its do or die.  Take the first down and then take your shot.     Also Hardman runs terrible routes.  He ran an out tonight that looked like a double move go.  It was so rounded off and had he broke hard to the sideline its an easy reception.  Mahomes was visibly frustrated with him.   

But we won the game and are 11-1 which is pretty awesome!  I have a feeling that the Oline will get a shuffle when Wiz and Rankins get ready.....at least i hope.

 

[sith13 1,746]

4 minutes ago, Lamardirts said:

Agree the D played relatively well.   I think Spags is going to look back on this season and wished he would have dumped Gay early on at Dime backer, and live with the consequences.   His decision to play Ben and keep playing him and use the excuse that he's the more cerebral player is like rolling Stephen Hawking out there and claiming because he knows where to be that means it helps the team more.   

We still don't utilize the backs in the passing game.  Bell had an easy first down and Mahomes went deep to Tyreek.  Which is fine but on 3rd down its do or die.  Take the first down and then take your shot.     Also Hardman runs terrible routes.  He ran an out tonight that looked like a double move go.  It was so rounded off and had he broke hard to the sideline its an easy reception.  Mahomes was visibly frustrated with him.   

But we won the game and are 11-1 which is pretty awesome!  I have a feeling that the Oline will get a shuffle when Wiz and Rankins get ready.....at least i hope.

 

Agree we need to take some shots (like with Gay) and live with the consequences. The payoff could be much higher and we need such guys to adjust sooner or later.

We didn't really stretch the field nor utilized the backs It was mostly throwing short to mid range to receivers which is much easier to cover for the defense. Also I don't understand the weird plays on 3rd downs, just go for the regular stuff that should work, no need to get flashy or creative. Run if you have to and fall short but do some simple stuff.

With so much talent 11-1 isn't surprising, if anything the loss was a bigger surprise. Even when we don't play well there's still enough talent to be competitive and so far this year that competitiveness kept winning us games. However we need to get some things figured out for the playoffs. I think that'll be much easier since we are already in the playoffs and have more flexibility to try new stuff. 

[Lamardirts 2,114]

10 minutes ago, sith13 said:

Yep, not sure when he'll be ready though. If they use simple routes for him he seems to be doing fine, that could be just the defense ignoring him as it was only a couple games but who knows. However other than the DMC type backfield roles Hardman seems to be overlooked way too much for a recent high pick.

Hill used to be terrible with routes as a rookie but Reid designed plays to utilize his abilities back then, right now I'm not sure if he's spending any time for Hardman.

I don't know how hard it is to learn routes but it seems like they can be learned with repitition.  Who is he working out with in the offseason?   I'd be finding out who Hill works with.   His route running seems to be the only thing keeping him out of major targets

..

[sith13 1,746]

6 minutes ago, Lamardirts said:

I don't know how hard it is to learn routes but it seems like they can be learned with repitition.  Who is he working out with in the offseason?   I'd be finding out who Hill works with.   His route running seems to be the only thing keeping him out of major targets

..

I never understood that, there are like 9-10 routes yet players whose entire job is based on them take too long to learn even after some time in college. I would imagine that it should be easier for Hardman to implement the routes as he's pretty agile but there sure is something wrong. 

 

[Lamardirts 2,114]

14 minutes ago, sith13 said:

I never understood that, there are like 9-10 routes yet players whose entire job is based on them take too long to learn even after some time in college. I would imagine that it should be easier for Hardman to implement the routes as he's pretty agile but there sure is something wrong. 

 

I mean lineman techniques and pass rush plans...sure I could see how that would take lots of experience and practice but how hard are outs when you are that fast.   It's not like your a big slow possession receiver that really has to hone your craft.  You have world class speed that scares db's and he's rounding off routes.   I know this offseason was messed up but he's not a rookie.    To me he almost falls into that 2nd round curse of ours.   Uber talented raw guys that we take too early in the draft.   Wasn't Terry McLaurin really fast too?  

I think he will be a very good 3rd option and is always dangerous but I wonder if he can ever be counted on to be a #1 or #2.

 

[Calichief 3,016]

19 minutes ago, sith13 said:

I never understood that, there are like 9-10 routes yet players whose entire job is based on them take too long to learn even after some time in college. I would imagine that it should be easier for Hardman to implement the routes as he's pretty agile but there sure is something wrong. 

 

Option routes. Based on coverage. Run the wrong one, and it’s a pick. I think Reid’s offense is highly complicated for the wr’s

[Lamardirts 2,114]

16 minutes ago, Calichief said:

Option routes. Based on coverage. Run the wrong one, and it’s a pick. I think Reid’s offense is highly complicated for the wr’s

Sure I get that, but if they trust you enough to be on the field for those specific plays what is his excuse for running a bad route?   Reminds me of basketball when the guy with the ball is in trouble you break to him instead of sliding back as the ball is passed.  That always gives the D a chance to make a play.   I guess I'm curious why this is still happening at the end of year 2 for Hardman.

[Adamixoye 604]

3 hours ago, sith13 said:

We didn't really stretch the field nor utilized the backs It was mostly throwing short to mid range to receivers which is much easier to cover for the defense. Also I don't understand the weird plays on 3rd downs, just go for the regular stuff that should work, no need to get flashy or creative. Run if you have to and fall short but do some simple stuff.

This just seems like it's full of contradictions.  We stretched the field, Hill literally scored two touchdowns that were taken off the board!  And we can't simultaneously complain about not stretching the field but also not taking the checkdowns.

[sith13 1,746]

4 hours ago, Lamardirts said:

I mean lineman techniques and pass rush plans...sure I could see how that would take lots of experience and practice but how hard are outs when you are that fast.   It's not like your a big slow possession receiver that really has to hone your craft.  You have world class speed that scares db's and he's rounding off routes.   I know this offseason was messed up but he's not a rookie.    To me he almost falls into that 2nd round curse of ours.   Uber talented raw guys that we take too early in the draft.   Wasn't Terry McLaurin really fast too?  

I think he will be a very good 3rd option and is always dangerous but I wonder if he can ever be counted on to be a #1 or #2.

 

With that speed and hands a WR should always find ways to be useful, I wish some reporter asked Reid about him. Even Robinson is getting more snaps and he has hands of stone. 

I'm starting to think that we should trade down the 2nds for a 3rd and a 4th may be. Thornhill is probably the only one that worked out well for us over the last billion picks. 

 

[sith13 1,746]

1 hour ago, Adamixoye said:

This just seems like it's full of contradictions.  We stretched the field, Hill literally scored two touchdowns that were taken off the board!  And we can't simultaneously complain about not stretching the field but also not taking the checkdowns.

We have the deep ball and will always do with Hill around. However I don't think we stretched the field, in fact the defense playing close to the box got Hill so wide open. The defenses are focused on the pass but lately not as stretched out as we are used to and that seems to take away the underneath throws rather easily. Still we should be able to move the chains with ease but we seem to go for the complex plays on 3rd downs rather than the simple ones to get enough for a first. 

[Adamixoye 604]

38 minutes ago, sith13 said:

We have the deep ball and will always do with Hill around. However I don't think we stretched the field, in fact the defense playing close to the box got Hill so wide open. The defenses are focused on the pass but lately not as stretched out as we are used to and that seems to take away the underneath throws rather easily. Still we should be able to move the chains with ease but we seem to go for the complex plays on 3rd downs rather than the simple ones to get enough for a first. 

Totally disagree.  We went up and down the field, had 447 yards of total offense and 25 first downs.  We DID move the chains with ease.  We had 5 FGs, 3 punts, 1 TD, and 1 end of game drive.  Clean up the red zone and don't have the horrible luck on those Hill bombs and this isn't even a discussion.

[sith13 1,746]

20 minutes ago, Adamixoye said:

Totally disagree.  We went up and down the field, had 447 yards of total offense and 25 first downs.  We DID move the chains with ease.  We had 5 FGs, 3 punts, 1 TD, and 1 end of game drive.  Clean up the red zone and don't have the horrible luck on those Hill bombs and this isn't even a discussion.

We were 3 out of 10 on 3rd downs against a Denver team that shouldn't really be so competitive. It'll always be ignored as long as there is nice cushion on the scoreboard but that wasn't the case either. 

[Adamixoye 604]

1 minute ago, sith13 said:

We were 3 out of 10 on 3rd downs against a Denver team that shouldn't really be so competitive. It'll always be ignored as long as there is nice cushion on the scoreboard but that wasn't the case either. 

Now you're shifting the topic.  More than half of those missed 3rd downs were the red zone issues, nothing to do with stretching the field.

[sith13 1,746]

10 minutes ago, Adamixoye said:

Now you're shifting the topic.  More than half of those missed 3rd downs were the red zone issues, nothing to do with stretching the field.

Not sure what stats can be used to show that we didn't stretch the field as usual. We were terrible in red zone which is a whole other issue but most of our underneath throws were very contested as well. 

[mex 65,581]

9 hours ago, Adamixoye said:

Time for the other guys to step up.

indeed

[mex 65,581]

5 hours ago, Calichief said:

Option routes. Based on coverage. Run the wrong one, and it’s a pick. I think Reid’s offense is highly complicated for the wr’s

it works with Kelce because he and PM are (mostly) on the same page mentally

it almost burned us once last night tho... 

[mex 65,581]

9 hours ago, jetlord said:

Playing against Manning or Elway, you'd be right.  Against Lock who has little time and no time outs?  Right call.

ok Capt Hindsight...   

I trust the offense to pick up a few yards more than the defense at this point

long as Andy don't get too cutesy

 

[Adamixoye 604]

23 minutes ago, sith13 said:

Not sure what stats can be used to show that we didn't stretch the field as usual. We were terrible in red zone which is a whole other issue but most of our underneath throws were very contested as well. 

I'm not sure either, but mostly because I don't think those stats exist.  All the basic stats and the eye test indicated that we stretched the field perfectly fine, especially if those two Hill TDs (one the wrong call, another ticky-tack) come through.  Oh and we had another shot to Hill that we just missed.

[Adamixoye 604]

I have to weigh in again on the idea of Andy getting "cutesy" in the red zone.  We can't complain about the running game AND complain about the gadget plays.  As long as our running game is struggling we have to have at least some creativity.  That creativity was largely working until these last two games.  The series that started at the 4 was the worst (second FG drive), but the plays at least made some sense:

• Use the "Patrick in motion" thing we've put on film to get the ball to the RB, get 3 of the 4 yards need
• Try to get one yard with Bell, didn't work
• Since that's not working try some misdirection, it got sniffed out

But there were other series were we put Patrick in the shotgun over and over again and there was too much pressure, passes got batted down, etc.  The vast majority of our offensive issues are line play, which gets compounded in the red zone.  You've got to have SOME creativity in the red zone if your OL isn't dominant.  Nobody called it "cutesy" all the times when those shovel passes and sweeps worked earlier in the season.