Line

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

2 hours ago, jetlord said:

Okay.  I was approximating without looking at the chart. Still, it would be hard to get another third rounder without sinking pretty far down in the second.  It all depends on who the Chiefs have targeted for their first pick and how badly the trading partner wants #31.  The most promising scenario is if QB Jones is on the board and some teams thinks he's the answer.  Then they'll give up a little more to fill that wish.  Then the Chiefs have to judge whether their target will last to #40 or whatever or if there's a back up that really isn't a down grade.  It's impossible to speculate with any accuracy until the moment.  My point was that it's better to have the extra fourth if the player you want with your first pick will still be there early in the second.  

I've always wondered why there has been so much emphasis on the round.  It seems so arbitrary.  Once the first 224 have been taken , the draft is over, right?  There still only a one player difference between #32 and #33.  But we say the latter is a "second rounder," as if that has some outsized meaning.  It never made sense to me

[jetlord 10,209]

8 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

I've always wondered why there has been so much emphasis on the round.  It seems so arbitrary.  Once the first 224 have been taken , the draft is over, right?  There still only a one player difference between #32 and #33.  But we say the latter is a "second rounder," as if that has some outsized meaning.  It never made sense to me

You're correct.  The drop from 25 to 29 is the same as the drop from 31 to 35.  It more depends on which player a team has targeted and an estimate of when another team will grab him. 

[sith13 1,746]

13 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

I've always wondered why there has been so much emphasis on the round.  It seems so arbitrary.  Once the first 224 have been taken , the draft is over, right?  There still only a one player difference between #32 and #33.  But we say the latter is a "second rounder," as if that has some outsized meaning.  It never made sense to me

The only difference between #32 and #33 is the 5th year option which might be very important if you have a QB that needs time to develop before paying him. Otherwise any player selected around there is expected to be a decent starter so the value for the pick shouldn't be that much. It's more of a leverage thing IMO when trading down as some teams want that 5th year option. 

However the rounds themselves seem to have different meaning for some people. 1st and 2nd seem to be further apart than #32 and #33 when people are talking about it, so the round itself generally refers to something like a pick around the middle. 

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

Thanks, to both of you. That clears up the issue for me.

[Palangi 788]

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2021/3/1/22307523/chiefs-tackles-eric-fisher-mitch-schwartz-may-be-ready-for-week-1

 

I'd say it's pretty risky to rely on two aging guys coming off major injuries. 

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

6 hours ago, Palangi said:

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2021/3/1/22307523/chiefs-tackles-eric-fisher-mitch-schwartz-may-be-ready-for-week-1

 

I'd say it's pretty risky to rely on two aging guys coming off major injuries. 

I agree.  Even if both are back, their age demands that new guys be developing to excel, whenever one or the other leave or retire. The answer will come when we finally see what Niang can do.  There may be someone else also in-house who can develop to that level.  If Veach and the line coaches think so, they may go that way, but I would feel much better with a great draftee since this draft is very strong with O-linemen.  If Niang proves a disappointment, we would still have a high ceiling guy developing.

[kkuenn 3,598]

25 minutes ago, Fmbl2187 said:

I agree.  Even if both are back, their age demands that new guys be developing to excel, whenever one or the other leave or retire. The answer will come when we finally see what Niang can do.  There may be someone else also in-house who can develop to that level.  If Veach and the line coaches think so, they may go that way, but I would feel much better with a great draftee since this draft is very strong with O-linemen.  If Niang proves a disappointment, we would still have a high ceiling guy developing.

In house talent is what got us in trouble

 Thinking Reiter, Wylie etc were the answer is ludicrous. We need an actual line coach too. To think this is the best they can get and try to develop is beyond dumb and cost us a shot at a 2nd SB.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

2 hours ago, kkuenn said:

In house talent is what got us in trouble

 Thinking Reiter, Wylie etc were the answer is ludicrous. We need an actual line coach too. To think this is the best they can get and try to develop is beyond dumb and cost us a shot at a 2nd SB.

An incredible number of O-line injuries is what got us in trouble.  To say anything else is flat out ridiculous.  I agree we need a good center.  Reiter is not the answer.  Wylie actually isn't bad and is continuing to develop and get better. He's young and talented.  We do need at least one high ceiling OT  in the draft who can step right in if necessary., but mostly back up and develop for a couple of years.  This is the draft to do it.  The D-line actually needs as much, or more, help. 

[Palangi 788]

40 minutes ago, Fmbl2187 said:

An incredible number of O-line injuries is what got us in trouble.  To say anything else is flat out ridiculous.  I agree we need a good center.  Reiter is not the answer.  Wylie actually isn't bad and is continuing to develop and get better. He's young and talented.  We do need at least one high ceiling OT  in the draft who can step right in if necessary., but mostly back up and develop for a couple of years.  This is the draft to do it.  The D-line actually needs as much, or more, help. 

Wylie is nothing more than a backup at most

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

22 minutes ago, Palangi said:

Wylie is nothing more than a backup at most

We can't say that, yet. O-linemen  usually don't reach their peak until year 5.  Everybody in KC was ready to dump Fisher after two years.  I haven't heard much talk about that the last couple of years.  Fisher will never be great, but he is much better than average.  That same thing could happen to Wylie at guard.  It is just premature for you to say he could never be a quality starter.

[sith13 1,746]

3 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

We can't say that, yet. O-linemen  usually don't reach their peak until year 5.  Everybody in KC was ready to dump Fisher after two years.  I haven't heard much talk about that the last couple of years.  Fisher will never be great, but he is much better than average.  That same thing could happen to Wylie at guard.  It is just premature for you to say he could never be a quality starter.

It's true that no all players peak at the same time and it seems to vary more for fatties. However players should be showing enough progress early on to warrant the future investment. Wylie has been terrible as a starter ever since he took over and I don't think progressed at all. Fisher is basically a classical 2nd 3rd round guy that became 1st overall due to a terrible draft class and his progression is in line with a 2nd day pick but even Fisher showed decent performances on the right side as a rookie. 

I think Wylie is a career backup at best but if he can actually show more somewhere that's simply good for him but I don't think he earns the label "future starter". 

[Palangi 788]

5 hours ago, sith13 said:

It's true that no all players peak at the same time and it seems to vary more for fatties. However players should be showing enough progress early on to warrant the future investment. Wylie has been terrible as a starter ever since he took over and I don't think progressed at all. Fisher is basically a classical 2nd 3rd round guy that became 1st overall due to a terrible draft class and his progression is in line with a 2nd day pick but even Fisher showed decent performances on the right side as a rookie. 

I think Wylie is a career backup at best but if he can actually show more somewhere that's simply good for him but I don't think he earns the label "future starter". 

He definitely shouldn't be starting over Rankin.  

And I believe it to be a toss up with LDT. 

If it comes down to those 2, I'd rather see what we have with Durant.  He showed well at RG in the Chargers game. 

And nether Wylie out LDT should start at guard over Allegretti if we leave him at guard.  

[sith13 1,746]

5 minutes ago, Palangi said:

He definitely shouldn't be starting over Rankin.  

And I believe it to be a toss up with LDT. 

If it comes down to those 2, I'd rather see what we have with Durant.  He showed well at RG in the Chargers game. 

And nether Wylie out LDT should start at guard over Allegretti if we leave him at guard.  

Already done with Wylie in my head and I don't think sitting out a year will help an aging LDT at all. Definitely need to find some alternatives. 

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

He looked like a turnstile in the SB, but the Chiefs coaches seem to have a lot of faith in him.  Maybe they are just trying to build him up for trade value. i guess we will see.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

46 minutes ago, Palangi said:

He definitely shouldn't be starting over Rankin.  

And I believe it to be a toss up with LDT. 

If it comes down to those 2, I'd rather see what we have with Durant.  He showed well at RG in the Chargers game. 

And nether Wylie out LDT should start at guard over Allegretti if we leave him at guard.  

Disagree here. LDT is a mediocre OG. Andrew Wylie should be working at Verizon or in the field of whatever his major was in college. That dude is abysmal.

[jetlord 10,209]

12 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

We can't say that, yet. O-linemen  usually don't reach their peak until year 5.  Everybody in KC was ready to dump Fisher after two years.  I haven't heard much talk about that the last couple of years. 

Guess you missed Balto's posts.  😉

[jetlord 10,209]

13 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

An incredible number of O-line injuries is what got us in trouble.  To say anything else is flat out ridiculous.  I agree we need a good center.  Reiter is not the answer.  Wylie actually isn't bad and is continuing to develop and get better. He's young and talented.  We do need at least one high ceiling OT  in the draft who can step right in if necessary., but mostly back up and develop for a couple of years.  This is the draft to do it.  The D-line actually needs as much, or more, help. 

The Chiefs need to replace three or four O-linemen in the near term depending of how Niang pans out.  They only need one edge pass rusher to shore up the D-line.  An average O-line could mean more SB titles.  A good )-line could mean dynasty.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

3 hours ago, jetlord said:

The Chiefs need to replace three or four O-linemen in the near term depending of how Niang pans out.  They only need one edge pass rusher to shore up the D-line.  An average O-line could mean more SB titles.  A good )-line could mean dynasty.

I would say a moderate improvement in luck with injuries and maybe 2 new top guys able to start pretty quickly and/or sub would give us a good O-line.  I'm not ready to think three or four. 

Mohomes doesn't need a full second more time.  A half second would put a whole new level of play on the field.

[jetlord 10,209]

24 minutes ago, Fmbl2187 said:

I would say a moderate improvement in luck with injuries and maybe 2 new top guys able to start pretty quickly and/or sub would give us a good O-line.  I'm not ready to think three or four. 

Mohomes doesn't need a full second more time.  A half second would put a whole new level of play on the field.

Okay, let's be more specific.  Fisher may have had a lesser rupture than we assumed.  So he MIGHT play some or most of the season this year or maybe not.  Either way, he's too expensive and getting up there in years so a replacement should be getting ready.  Schwartz probably will try to play this fall.  He MIGHT avoid further back issues although they are hard to get rid of when one weighs over 300 pounds.  He's also getting closer to retirement so a replacement should be getting ready.  Reiter is what we know he is and an instant replacement is needed.  Got to have a plug and play OC to put in this season.  Wylie is below average and LDT may not be much better after declining two years ago and then taking a year off.  Need to upgrade at OG.  Maybe Durant or Rankin can be an average starter, but the jury is out on that and the staff didn't use them when needed last season.  So in only a couple of seasons, the Chiefs need to find three or four new linemen assuming Allegretti is a long term starter and that Niang can play OT or OG.  This is a year when the draft is rich in O-line so the Chiefs would do well to take advantage and start building.  JMHO  And don't depend of better luck.  😉

[xen 1,010,220]

11 minutes ago, jetlord said:

Okay, let's be more specific.  Fisher may have had a lesser rupture than we assumed.  So he MIGHT play some or most of the season this year or maybe not.  Either way, he's too expensive and getting up there in years so a replacement should be getting ready.  Schwartz probably will try to play this fall.  He MIGHT avoid further back issues although they are hard to get rid of when one weighs over 300 pounds.  He's also getting closer to retirement so a replacement should be getting ready.  Reiter is what we know he is and an instant replacement is needed.  Got to have a plug and play OC to put in this season.  Wylie is below average and LDT may not be much better after declining two years ago and then taking a year off.  Need to upgrade at OG.  Maybe Durant or Rankin can be an average starter, but the jury is out on that and the staff didn't use them when needed last season.  So in only a couple of seasons, the Chiefs need to find three or four new linemen assuming Allegretti is a long term starter and that Niang can play OT or OG.  This is a year when the draft is rich in O-line so the Chiefs would do well to take advantage and start building.  JMHO  And don't depend of better luck.  😉

Wouldn't be so sure of that on either player, depending on injury.  Lots of tackles play well even into their mid to late 30's.

I mean, I don't disagree but the Chiefs may see it otherwise.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

3 hours ago, jetlord said:

Okay, let's be more specific.  Fisher may have had a lesser rupture than we assumed.  So he MIGHT play some or most of the season this year or maybe not.  Either way, he's too expensive and getting up there in years so a replacement should be getting ready.  Schwartz probably will try to play this fall.  He MIGHT avoid further back issues although they are hard to get rid of when one weighs over 300 pounds.  He's also getting closer to retirement so a replacement should be getting ready.  Reiter is what we know he is and an instant replacement is needed.  Got to have a plug and play OC to put in this season.  Wylie is below average and LDT may not be much better after declining two years ago and then taking a year off.  Need to upgrade at OG.  Maybe Durant or Rankin can be an average starter, but the jury is out on that and the staff didn't use them when needed last season.  So in only a couple of seasons, the Chiefs need to find three or four new linemen assuming Allegretti is a long term starter and that Niang can play OT or OG.  This is a year when the draft is rich in O-line so the Chiefs would do well to take advantage and start building.  JMHO  And don't depend of better luck.  😉

I don't disagree with any of that ,especially the part about a couple of years. It fits what I was saying.  Center is a top priority in the draft, and we already drafted young guys to develop, like Niang, and traded for others.  No one here really knows whether they will eventually be great contributors, possibly not even the coaches yet, but especially us.  Two guys who start or are capable of it and also somewhat versatile are the most we can ask for right now.  I don't know of any other team that lost their entire O line like we did last season...highly unusual. It has to be many years since that has happened to a team.  That is one of the reasons I am less panicky than others who have posted.  It is clear that Fisher tore his achilles, but to say he can be back by camp without question indicates that he did not completely tear the tendon away from the heel. It was obviously a partial tear that only needed some repair, not a complete through-and-through rupture of the entire achilles tendon.  That is a HUGE relief.  As far as Schwartz, the description is as I was hoping.  A disc.  When a disc capsule bulges out a little between two vertebrae and the disc material protrudes through that area, it pushes against a nerve and hurts.  All that is needed is a pretty quick surgery to ablate or trim away the protruding material, which takes pressure off of the nerve.  There is little reason to assume now that he will continue to hurt and not be able to play.  Of course we should be working on their replacements in the draft this year and next, but it is not an emergency situation at OT, if both of those things are true, which I choose to believe they are.  Decisions by the front office should never be based on short term fixes and panic as some have done here or advocated.  Simply draft well and train well and give Mahomes more protection while the new generation takes over and learns.  With a guy like Mahomes, who can throw accurately on the run, the biggest help will be to create more short plays and throws to the flat and get CEH much more involved in the  passing game. I fully expect that to happen. All of our running backs are excellent receivers, including Damien Williams who will be back, Darryl Williams, LeVeon Bell, etc.  A change in offensive game plans will do as much as any huge and panicky upgrade attempts on the O-line.  Those upgrades have to be done methodically and with patience. I trust in the 15-1 Chiefs, Reid, and Veach to do exactly that.

[jetlord 10,209]

14 minutes ago, Fmbl2187 said:

I don't disagree with any of that ,especially the part about a couple of years. It fits what I was saying.  Center is a top priority in the draft, and we already drafted young guys to develop, like Niang, and traded for others.  No one here really knows whether they will eventually be great contributors, possibly not even the coaches yet, but especially us.  Two guys who start or are capable of it and also somewhat versatile are the most we can ask for right now.  I don't know of any other team that lost their entire O line like we did last season...highly unusual.  That is one of the reasons I am less panicky than others who have posted.  It is clear that Fisher tore his achilles, but to say he can be back by camp without question indicates that he did not completely tear the tendon away from the heel. It was obviously a partial tear that only needed some repair, not a complete through-and-through rupture of the entire achilles tendon.  That is a HUGE relief.  As far as Schwartz, the description is as I was hoping.  A disc.  When a disc capsule bulges out a little between two vertebrae and the disc material protrudes through that area, it pushes against a nerve and hurts.  All that is needed is a pretty quick surgery to ablate or trim away the protruding material, which takes pressure off of the nerve.  There is little reason to assume now that he will continue to hurt and not be able to play.  Of course we should be working on their replacements in the draft this year and next, but it is not an emergency situation at OT, if both of those things are true, which I choose to believe they are.  Decisions by the front office should never be based on short term fixes and panic as some have done here or advocated.  Simply draft well and train well and give Mahomes more protection while the new generation takes over and learns.  With a guy like Mahomes, who can throw accurately on the run, the biggest help will be to create more short plays and throws to the flat and get CEH much more involved in the  passing game. I fully expect that to happen. All of our running backs are excellent receivers, including Damien Williams who will be back, Darryl Williams, LeVeon Bell, etc.  A change in offensive game plans will do as much as any huge and panicky upgrade attempts on the O-line.  Those upgrades have to be done methodically and with patience.

Okay, I hope they methodically draft an OT in the first round with patience.  

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

Just now, jetlord said:

Okay, I hope they methodically draft an OT in the first round with patience.  

✔

[Palangi 788]

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2021/3/4/22311959/chiefs-meeting-virtually-with-potential-first-round-offensive-tackle

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

3 minutes ago, Palangi said:

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2021/3/4/22311959/chiefs-meeting-virtually-with-potential-first-round-offensive-tackle

He'll never fall to us.