Screw Orlando Brown

[AFCWEST 1,238]

1 minute ago, kkuenn said:

I mean if they liked what they saw the last 10 games, what they see in practice and his improvements then why not? It would put him about 8th or so paid tackle. If we could get him to 18 mil then it it around or outside the top 10.

Thing is, give him the 20 mil average but make all the signing bonus etc up front now. He is counting 17 mil already, use that and back end it so the last year or 2 he is able to be cut. If by year 3 or 4 he ain't worth that salary, then extend him or rework it. This way we pay 18 mil a year for the first 3 years or 4 and go from there.

Thanks. Lots of good info has been shared. At this point I will trust that if KC gives him the extension they know what they have and it fits the long term plan.

Hard to create a balanced team once your QB is off the rookie deal. Other teams will face the same challenges soon.

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

The only thing i haven't really added so far that i have been thinking for a while. It just seems to be Mahomes does not trust Brown at LT. Now you can say thats on Mahomes, but he seems to roll out and escape the pocket quicker than he should. And i think its simply from the start of the season that Brown was getting beat so often Mahomes was scared to death all year in fear of getting blindside pancaked.

Now lets hope Brown improvements are real and he continues to get better, and this allows Mahomes to trust him going forward.

But it seems to be there were certain players Mahomes just simply did not trust last year. Those IMO were Robinson, Pringle, Hardman, CEH, and Brown jr.

Two of those guys are gone, and i bet hardman is gone after this season as well, and i bet they dont' pick up CEH's 5th year option unless he dramatically improves this season.

Obviously this is not something that can be backed up by stats, just my personal observation and opinion.

[oldtimer 8,684]

6 minutes ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

The only thing i haven't really added so far that i have been thinking for a while. It just seems to be Mahomes does not trust Brown at LT. Now you can say thats on Mahomes, but he seems to roll out and escape the pocket quicker than he should. And i think its simply from the start of the season that Brown was getting beat so often Mahomes was scared to death all year in fear of getting blindside pancaked.

Now lets hope Brown improvements are real and he continues to get better, and this allows Mahomes to trust him going forward.

But it seems to be there were certain players Mahomes just simply did not trust last year. Those IMO were Robinson, Pringle, Hardman, CEH, and Brown jr.

Two of those guys are gone, and i bet hardman is gone after this season as well, and i bet they dont' pick up CEH's 5th year option unless he dramatically improves this season.

Obviously this is not something that can be backed up by stats, just my personal observation and opinion.

I think that is years of Pat just being Pat not all on Brown. I'm no Brown fanboy but I certainly dont think  an upgrade will be an easy or cheap one.  Somehow I think Brown needs to continue to improve and Pat needs to settle down..maybe a better run game will help both. I'm also in the camp that 20 M a year now will look like a bargain in 2-3 years even for an average LT

[xen 1,010,219]

9 minutes ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

The only thing i haven't really added so far that i have been thinking for a while. It just seems to be Mahomes does not trust Brown at LT. Now you can say thats on Mahomes, but he seems to roll out and escape the pocket quicker than he should. And i think its simply from the start of the season that Brown was getting beat so often Mahomes was scared to death all year in fear of getting blindside pancaked.

Now lets hope Brown improvements are real and he continues to get better, and this allows Mahomes to trust him going forward.

But it seems to be there were certain players Mahomes just simply did not trust last year. Those IMO were Robinson, Pringle, Hardman, CEH, and Brown jr.

Two of those guys are gone, and i bet hardman is gone after this season as well, and i bet they dont' pick up CEH's 5th year option unless he dramatically improves this season.

Obviously this is not something that can be backed up by stats, just my personal observation and opinion.

Hardman is gone cause he'll get bank (see Kirk, Christian).  If CEH is gone it will be because RB's are eminently replaceable.  The other 2 are gone because they could not consistently beat press and that's how teams were playing us; double the big dogs and press the rest.

Mahomes has always had happy feet snaps, but in general settles in pretty well once he knows where the pocket will be.  You could literally see them figuring it out as the season went on and OBJ and the line in general got better.

[xen 1,010,219]

Hate to break it to you folks but his market value is probably closer to the 23m that spotrac has than the 20m getting thrown around here.  With the cap getting set to explode, left tackles are going to start breaking the market like the receivers did.  

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/orlando-brown-jr-25182/market-value/

[reesebobby 5,661]

18 minutes ago, xen said:

Hate to break it to you folks but his market value is probably closer to the 23m that spotrac has than the 20m getting thrown around here.  With the cap getting set to explode, left tackles are going to start breaking the market like the receivers did.  

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/orlando-brown-jr-25182/market-value/

What if we do 20 million plus health insurance and a gym membership?

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

Hypothetical Scenerio: Which would you prefer for this upcoming season.

A: Keep Orlando Brown Jr. on Franchise tag for roughly 17 million. who earned a PFF grade of 75.4 last season.

B: Trade Brown Jr. to some team that decides they need a LT for a 3rd round pick. Take the 17 Mil and spend 8 Mil on a potentially worse free agent LT such as Duane Brown who earned a 71.5 PFF grade last year, or Eric Fischer who earned a 68.2 PFF grade. I picked those two because they are the two highest ranked PFF tackles who are currently free agents.

And use the other 9 million to sign One or some combo or Jadeveon Clowney, Akeem Hicks, Carlos Dunlap, Trey Flowers.

Brown is an up and coming LT who isn't perfect, but is much younger than Duane Brown or Fischer. Duane who is going to be 37 years old had his worst year ever and may be on a sharp decline. We all know about Fischer.

But does the potential downgrade at LT, but improvement at D line for this season, plus an extra 3rd round pick make it something to consider in your eyes?

[Palangi 788]

3 hours ago, kkuenn said:

What I thought, he improved and was above average to say the least. This year, if he keeps it going, he will show his worth. 

Not to mention the rumors of him dropping some weight to get more agile. He could improve even more

[AFCWEST 1,238]

1 hour ago, oldtimer said:

I think that is years of Pat just being Pat not all on Brown. I'm no Brown fanboy but I certainly dont think  an upgrade will be an easy or cheap one.  Somehow I think Brown needs to continue to improve and Pat needs to settle down..maybe a better run game will help both. I'm also in the camp that 20 M a year now will look like a bargain in 2-3 years even for an average LT

Agree.

One thought. Lots of responses include the cap is going up. . The math still counts. Todays good deal is very relative. Still if you have 3-5 guys getting 20 and PM getting 40 , that doesnt leave much for the other 48 guys even as the cap increases. Veach has shown he is very careful with cap issues and that is a VERY GOOD THING.

[DieHard 2,061]

3 hours ago, AFCWEST said:

How would you feel if KC extends him now at 20 million+? Honest question. 

I would do it. Next year we need a number of premium positions and adding LT to that is something you just can’t do. People can say replace him, but with who?

[xen 1,010,219]

59 minutes ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

Hypothetical Scenerio: Which would you prefer for this upcoming season.

A: Keep Orlando Brown Jr. on Franchise tag for roughly 17 million. who earned a PFF grade of 75.4 last season.

B: Trade Brown Jr. to some team that decides they need a LT for a 3rd round pick. Take the 17 Mil and spend 8 Mil on a potentially worse free agent LT such as Duane Brown who earned a 71.5 PFF grade last year, or Eric Fischer who earned a 68.2 PFF grade. I picked those two because they are the two highest ranked PFF tackles who are currently free agents.

And use the other 9 million to sign One or some combo or Jadeveon Clowney, Akeem Hicks, Carlos Dunlap, Trey Flowers.

Brown is an up and coming LT who isn't perfect, but is much younger than Duane Brown or Fischer. Duane who is going to be 37 years old had his worst year ever and may be on a sharp decline. We all know about Fischer.

But does the potential downgrade at LT, but improvement at D line for this season, plus an extra 3rd round pick make it something to consider in your eyes?

Keep Brown 100%.  None of those dline guys fix the problem either this year or more importantly for the future (there are legitimate reasons they're still on the street). And your OLine went from a strength to a problem.

PFF grades are cumulative so if you haven't figured out now from all the posts on it that it isn't representative of what he was becoming as the season went along I don't know what to tell you.  I guess just keep beating that horse?

 

[Lamardirts 2,114]

5 hours ago, SEMO said:

Certain positions I prefer the proven commodity.  LT is one of them.

KC always picks low and LTs with elite "potential" are usually gone by then.  Trading major capital move up into the top 10 to draft one is a huge gamble.  You could end up with Willie Roaf, or Trezelle Jenkins.

Pay the man.  20MM per will look like a bargain 3 years from now.

The longer we wait his price point won't look like bargain.   Worse case scenario he gets forced back to RT and we have an expensive RT.   There are lots of things worse than that scenario.   

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

51 minutes ago, xen said:

Keep Brown 100%.  None of those dline guys fix the problem either this year or more importantly for the future (there are legitimate reasons they're still on the street). And your OLine went from a strength to a problem.

PFF grades are cumulative so if you haven't figured out now from all the posts on it that it isn't representative of what he was becoming as the season went along I don't know what to tell you.  I guess just keep beating that horse?

 

Im not beating any horse, i just asked a question because i was curious what the members here would do.

i understand what the word cumulative means

[jetlord 10,207]

2 hours ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

Hypothetical Scenerio: Which would you prefer for this upcoming season.

A: Keep Orlando Brown Jr. on Franchise tag for roughly 17 million. who earned a PFF grade of 75.4 last season.

B: Trade Brown Jr. to some team that decides they need a LT for a 3rd round pick. Take the 17 Mil and spend 8 Mil on a potentially worse free agent LT such as Duane Brown who earned a 71.5 PFF grade last year, or Eric Fischer who earned a 68.2 PFF grade. I picked those two because they are the two highest ranked PFF tackles who are currently free agents.

And use the other 9 million to sign One or some combo or Jadeveon Clowney, Akeem Hicks, Carlos Dunlap, Trey Flowers.

Brown is an up and coming LT who isn't perfect, but is much younger than Duane Brown or Fischer. Duane who is going to be 37 years old had his worst year ever and may be on a sharp decline. We all know about Fischer.

But does the potential downgrade at LT, but improvement at D line for this season, plus an extra 3rd round pick make it something to consider in your eyes?

How about C?  Extend Brown now before the price gets even higher and structure the deal to create enough cap space this season to sign a DE or pass rushing DT?

[xen 1,010,219]

35 minutes ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

Im not beating any horse, i just asked a question because i was curious what the members here would do.

i understand what the word cumulative means

Do you though?  You keep using his 2021 season grade as proof that he's no better than average when his career grades and season improvement tend to show otherwise.

I'm just saying, if we want to get rid of him it seems smarter to do so after this season when we might have actual options to find a good replacement.

Note, I'm not advocating we get rid of him.

 

[Okiechief1 425]

11 minutes ago, jetlord said:

How about C?  Extend Brown now before the price gets even higher and structure the deal to create enough cap space this season to sign a DE or pass rushing DT?

Kinda where I am at.   

He was a RT playing a in  run first offesnse.  From what I can find he played 10 games at LT when Stanley was injured in 2020, prior to that everything at RT. Came over here and switched from right to left in primarily pass first offense  It was always going to take him a bit to get used to LT and he showed he could get better as the season went along which he did.  I doubt he has hit his ceiling, if the way  he finished the year was any indication, then he hasn't.  

 

My preference sign Brown, keep the draft picks it would take to move up high enough to get a plug and play LT in the draft finish out the D, cause next year we are still going to need a DE, DT and probably another WR and possibily 2.  Veach said he is going to be a player next year in FA, I would rather not add to that list

 

[reesebobby 5,661]

29 minutes ago, xen said:

Do you though?  You keep using his 2021 season grade as proof that he's no better than average when his career grades and season improvement tend to show otherwise.

I'm just saying, if we want to get rid of him it seems smarter to do so after this season when we might have actual options to find a good replacement.

Note, I'm not advocating we get rid of him.

 

That's basically what OT and AFCWEST have been saying.  

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

5 hours ago, xen said:

Do you though?  You keep using his 2021 season grade as proof that he's no better than average when his career grades and season improvement tend to show otherwise.

I'm just saying, if we want to get rid of him it seems smarter to do so after this season when we might have actual options to find a good replacement.

Note, I'm not advocating we get rid of him.

 

… I simply listed the grade he was given by pff sir. If you have a stat for his grade the last 12 weeks or whatever thats fine, but i have no idea what it is

[THEWIZARD 247]

19 hours ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

… I simply listed the grade he was given by pff sir. If you have a stat for his grade the last 12 weeks or whatever thats fine, but i have no idea what it is

1st full year as a starter at LT, new team with entirely  different offensive scheme, new starters at every position on the OL... 

In this particular case those pff grades are useless. I have no idea why you can't comprehend that simple fact. Break down his season performance by quarters and get back to me.

And yeah, you've beaten that horse into hamburger.

[kkuenn 3,597]

On 5/20/2022 at 7:04 AM, xen said:

Fwiw, after week 5 PFF had him as a low top 10 rated pass blocker iirc, and the number 2 overall run blocker for the season.  He had the most pass set snaps at tackle in the league.  First 5 games brought his overall grade down quite a bit since season grades are cumulative.

 

19 hours ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

… I simply listed the grade he was given by pff sir. If you have a stat for his grade the last 12 weeks or whatever thats fine, but i have no idea what it is

 

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

4 hours ago, THEWIZARD said:

1st full year as a starter at LT, new team with entirely  different offensive scheme, new starters at every position on the OL... 

In this particular case those pff grades are useless. I have no idea why you can't comprehend that simple fact. Break down his season performance by quarters and get back to me.

And yeah, you've beaten that horse into hamburger.

I still don’t understand what you all are going on about. I simply listed two options and wondered what you would choose. One person answered, and one gave another option C. I appreciate the feedback.

i have not said anything positive or negative in this post, just asked a question and im being attacked for passing along the pff grade.

i get there are weird circumstances, that it’s year 1 in a new system, that he improved as the year went on.

guess what, fischer was coming off achilles surgery, duane brown is old, those are also circumstances to consider. I only chose those two because they were the top pff graded free agents.

i was simply wondering, given all these things to consider what people would prefer, and i gave ZERO opinions on what i would choose.

but thanks for going out of the way to be argumentative for no reason, well done

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

4 hours ago, kkuenn said:

 

 

I missed that post somehow, top 10 and top 2 is interesting. Thx

[Balto 723]

On 5/20/2022 at 9:16 AM, CranjisMcbasketball said:

Hypothetical Scenerio: Which would you prefer for this upcoming season.

A: Keep Orlando Brown Jr. on Franchise tag for roughly 17 million. who earned a PFF grade of 75.4 last season.

B: Trade Brown Jr. to some team that decides they need a LT for a 3rd round pick. Take the 17 Mil and spend 8 Mil on a potentially worse free agent LT such as Duane Brown who earned a 71.5 PFF grade last year, or Eric Fischer who earned a 68.2 PFF grade. I picked those two because they are the two highest ranked PFF tackles who are currently free agents.

And use the other 9 million to sign One or some combo or Jadeveon Clowney, Akeem Hicks, Carlos Dunlap, Trey Flowers.

Brown is an up and coming LT who isn't perfect, but is much younger than Duane Brown or Fischer. Duane who is going to be 37 years old had his worst year ever and may be on a sharp decline. We all know about Fischer.

But does the potential downgrade at LT, but improvement at D line for this season, plus an extra 3rd round pick make it something to consider in your eyes?

Veach would never flip OBJ jr for a 3rd and to think so is pointless.  I’d personally be fine trading him but if Veach was interested in that it would of happened during the draft.  Trading him now would leave an impossible whole to fill and I see Veach keeping him on the tag and waiting till next off season to tag him again with the idea of a trade or long term contract at that point.  Hell a 2nd year tag won’t be to far from what most are saying Brown wants $20-$23M.

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

31 minutes ago, Balto said:

Veach would never flip OBJ jr for a 3rd and to think so is pointless.  I’d personally be fine trading him but if Veach was interested in that it would of happened during the draft.  Trading him now would leave an impossible whole to fill and I see Veach keeping him on the tag and waiting till next off season to tag him again with the idea of a trade or long term contract at that point.  Hell a 2nd year tag won’t be to far from what most are saying Brown wants $20-$23M.

this is what i would do as well at this point. see how Kinnard develops. see how the year goes. maybe brown is injured at some point and we see how the line looks without him. maybe he shows up to camp down 25 pounds and is a stud.

maybe veach would never deal him for a third, but he was a 3rd round pick originally, and the ravens who are an excellently ran organization, essentially let him walk for a third (yes i know that is debatable but thats my opinion of how the trade worked)

[THEWIZARD 247]

2 hours ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

I still don’t understand what you all are going on about. I simply listed two options and wondered what you would choose. One person answered, and one gave another option C. I appreciate the feedback.

i have not said anything positive or negative in this post, just asked a question and im being attacked for passing along the pff grade.

i get there are weird circumstances, that it’s year 1 in a new system, that he improved as the year went on.

guess what, fischer was coming off achilles surgery, duane brown is old, those are also circumstances to consider. I only chose those two because they were the top pff graded free agents.

i was simply wondering, given all these things to consider what people would prefer, and i gave ZERO opinions on what i would choose.

but thanks for going out of the way to be argumentative for no reason, well done

So what did I say that isn't factual? You are basing your opinion of this guy based on skewed pff grades, and you flatly refuse to look at the big picture. And the other poster is right, you continue beat that dead horse.

Once again, get away from your obviously biased opinion and look at that big picture.