Chris Jones merged thread

[kccrow 529]

On 8/16/2023 at 3:50 PM, Mr Ev said:

https://arrowheadaddict.com/posts/chris-jones-is-not-villain-chiefs-philosophical-deep-dive
 

 

That's an awful lot of text to say "pay Chris Jones what he wants and let the chips fall where they may with other extensions coming up."

And he's probably correct, but there is a point where you start asking yourself what assets you could add to keep the window open if you do instead draw a line and trade an aging asset. It's a difficult balance. History has shown that trading a guy is usually a lose-lose with perhaps the slight favor going to the team trading away the star. The issue is, there's also a strong amount of evidence that suggests most teams that hang onto a star do so for too long at too high of a price.

I support Veach sticking to whatever his convictions are either way. I don't know that either is a bad decision but it'll hurt us a trade were this year. 

[Mr Ev 332]

35 minutes ago, kccrow said:

That's an awful lot of text to say "pay Chris Jones what he wants and let the chips fall where they may with other extensions coming up."

And he's probably correct, but there is a point where you start asking yourself what assets you could add to keep the window open if you do instead draw a line and trade an aging asset. It's a difficult balance. History has shown that trading a guy is usually a lose-lose with perhaps the slight favor going to the team trading away the star. The issue is, there's also a strong amount of evidence that suggests most teams that hang onto a star do so for too long at too high of a price.

I support Veach sticking to whatever his convictions are either way. I don't know that either is a bad decision but it'll hurt us a trade were this year. 

It’s going to hurt either way I guess.  We either pay premium and regret it latwr or we don’t and regret it now.  Hopefully Veach and his staff can find some other dudes to develop.

[Mr Ev 332]

On 8/16/2023 at 4:27 PM, xen said:

Is this why all your takes are dumb?  You get your opinions from a douchebag lawyer like florio and dumb sites like arrowhead addict?  There are much smarter analysts out there if you want to take time to learn.

And I've been on the pay CJ bandwagon from the start so go sell it somewhere else. 

You know what, Xen?  You’re right.  When you’re right you’re right.  

[dhitter 1,424]

Is anyone besides me absolutely wearied by this whole crap show? If Jones doesn't report within the next week....I'm starting to think he might sit out actual games. 

[SEMO 6,811]

 

[oldtimer 8,686]

11 hours ago, kccrow said:

 

I support Veach sticking to whatever his convictions are either way. I don't know that either is a bad decision but it'll hurt us a trade were this year. 

this ^^^^

[xen 1,010,220]

12 hours ago, kccrow said:

That's an awful lot of text to say "pay Chris Jones what he wants and let the chips fall where they may with other extensions coming up."

And he's probably correct, but there is a point where you start asking yourself what assets you could add to keep the window open if you do instead draw a line and trade an aging asset. It's a difficult balance. History has shown that trading a guy is usually a lose-lose with perhaps the slight favor going to the team trading away the star. The issue is, there's also a strong amount of evidence that suggests most teams that hang onto a star do so for too long at too high of a price.

I support Veach sticking to whatever his convictions are either way. I don't know that either is a bad decision but it'll hurt us a trade were this year. 

Well stated.

I do think CJ at his age could be dominant for enough years to justify a big new contract.  DTs tend to not fall off the cliff as fast as some other positions and AD was playing really well last year at 33 before he got hurt.

 

[mex 65,581]

 

[jetlord 10,208]

7 hours ago, dhitter said:

Is anyone besides me absolutely wearied by this whole crap show? If Jones doesn't report within the next week....I'm starting to think he might sit out actual games. 

I'm also tired of this circus.  Jones will most likely report before missing any game checks.  No reason for him not to.  The question is how long will it take for him to be in game shape?

[xen 1,010,220]

36 minutes ago, mex said:

 

 

[jetlord 10,208]

On 8/9/2023 at 12:24 PM, Mr Ev said:

I’m allowed to have my opinion.  This is a forum after all.  You guys are true assholes.

[Joe_Chief 1,092]

https://tenor.com/view/im-surrounded-by-assholes-dark-helmet-colonel-sandurz-spaceballs-surrounded-by-dicks-gif-24854423

[kccrow 529]

12 hours ago, xen said:

I do think CJ at his age could be dominant for enough years to justify a big new contract.  DTs tend to not fall off the cliff as fast as some other positions and AD was playing really well last year at 33 before he got hurt.

 

I 100% agree, and I don't think Veach is worried about it either. The only question I believe is where Veach and Co have decided the "line" should be and if there are options available that harden that line or not. While I think 28 per is a pretty solid spot to pencil in that line, and obviously we've discussed the structure matters, it would also take a pretty colossal haul for me to say not to move off of it a little. I think what we have to also consider is that not only is he asking to be the 2nd highest-paid DT at that point, but he's also asking to be the 2nd highest-paid defensive player in the league. Watt is also at 28m per as the highest-paid DE. Veach has a reference point here we shouldn't discount. 

[West 6,713]

Both Sides have valid positions....

Chiefs are very smartly managed and VERY well coached.

Chiefs are also talking about new stadiums and retrofits to arrowhead ONCE the Royals make their decision.

Plenty of critical players need new deals next year....

 

It is all about cash flow and the Chiefs will stay inside their plan.....Jones signs inside the range they have allocated or could even get tagged again next year....facilitating a trade at that time.  Net - Net...The Chiefs will do what is best for the Chiefs in both the short and intermediate term. Long term in the NFL is like 3 -5 years....lol

[xen 1,010,220]

16 hours ago, kccrow said:

I 100% agree, and I don't think Veach is worried about it either. The only question I believe is where Veach and Co have decided the "line" should be and if there are options available that harden that line or not. While I think 28 per is a pretty solid spot to pencil in that line, and obviously we've discussed the structure matters, it would also take a pretty colossal haul for me to say not to move off of it a little. I think what we have to also consider is that not only is he asking to be the 2nd highest-paid DT at that point, but he's also asking to be the 2nd highest-paid defensive player in the league. Watt is also at 28m per as the highest-paid DE. Veach has a reference point here we shouldn't discount. 

You could make a good arguement that an elite pass rusher at DT is more valuable than an elite pass rusher at end.  And there are only 2 consistently elite pass rushers at DT in the NFL right now over the last 5 years.  Lot of good young ones but they're not there yet.

I'd love to know where Veach's line is.

[West 6,713]

Agree Xen.

 

[Spfdchiefsfan 621]

2 hours ago, West said:

Agree Xen.

 

NEVER, and I mean NEVER agree with Xen!   Even if you do, don't admit it.  As if his ego is not already way over inflated!  

[arrowhead 1,070]

2 hours ago, Spfdchiefsfan said:

NEVER, and I mean NEVER agree with Xen!   Even if you do, don't admit it.  As if his ego is not already way over inflated!  

His ego is certainly bigger than your bladder.

[Spfdchiefsfan 621]

1 hour ago, arrowhead said:

His ego is certainly bigger than your bladder.

That is not hard!

 

 

[kccrow 529]

On 8/19/2023 at 3:08 PM, xen said:

You could make a good arguement that an elite pass rusher at DT is more valuable than an elite pass rusher at end.  And there are only 2 consistently elite pass rushers at DT in the NFL right now over the last 5 years.  Lot of good young ones but they're not there yet.

I'd love to know where Veach's line is.

I don't think scarcity necessarily equates to a higher value. At the end of the day, guys like Myles Garrett and TJ Watt make more negative plays and have a higher impact on the QB overall than Jones does. Does Jones still have value in a similar salary range? I think I've said yes. Do you blow by that range because Jones is a rare DT? Not in a vacuum. I think the only real argument you'd have in favor of it is that the rest of the defensive line is young and/or inexpensive and we all know affecting the QB up front matters.

That said, I'm not especially keen on continually dumping other positions, like CB, like hot garbage just to make up for big contracts upfront. I didn't like letting Ward walk and I don't like looking forward to letting Sneed go. Eventually, that's going to fuck you hard in the ass. We walk a fine line if one of Watson or Williams doesn't turn up better. At the same time, Veach has also spent alot of resources to rebuild areas like that defensive backfield to help offset the cost and it's cost the DT position pretty hard. That well is dryer than shit in the Arizona sun. 

[mex 65,581]

21 hours ago, kccrow said:

that's going to fuck you hard in the ass. 

[West 6,713]

Good Point Crow....but Jones is a huge difference maker at crunch time the past several years....as was Clark IMO.

No doubt, this year...KC Needs Chris Jones and "the Window is wide open"....you do not waste these years.

w

[xen 1,010,220]

13 hours ago, kccrow said:

I don't think scarcity necessarily equates to a higher value. At the end of the day, guys like Myles Garrett and TJ Watt make more negative plays and have a higher impact on the QB overall than Jones does. Does Jones still have value in a similar salary range? I think I've said yes. Do you blow by that range because Jones is a rare DT? Not in a vacuum. I think the only real argument you'd have in favor of it is that the rest of the defensive line is young and/or inexpensive and we all know affecting the QB up front matters.

That said, I'm not especially keen on continually dumping other positions, like CB, like hot garbage just to make up for big contracts upfront. I didn't like letting Ward walk and I don't like looking forward to letting Sneed go. Eventually, that's going to fuck you hard in the ass. We walk a fine line if one of Watson or Williams doesn't turn up better. At the same time, Veach has also spent alot of resources to rebuild areas like that defensive backfield to help offset the cost and it's cost the DT position pretty hard. That well is dryer than shit in the Arizona sun. 

My point wasn't that scarcity = value.  The value in DT over end is that historically offenses with elite QBs have been able to gameplan around edge pressure easier than interior pressure.  Even Payton and Brady were not immune to this so when you get to postseason it can still wreck gameplams.  With ends you can chip with tight ends, use misdirection, hot reads, get the ball out quick, etc... harder to do all that with interior pressure when you have a guy that can get pressure even with double teams.

[West 6,713]

....and he is a beast that is in your face, knocking down passes....

 

w

[WichitaZRide 321]

I know I’m late to the party…. But I think this all gets resolved one way or another today or tomorrow.

My personal theory this whole time is that CJ is a veteran that didn’t wanna deal with training camp, and used his contract to get out of it.  Now he needs a couple weeks to get in game shape and learn new plays, so it’s time.  
 

My gut tells me he’s just been “negotiating” as a stall tactic and now that it’s time to return, is gonna take what we offer is on the table at this point…

Don’t get me wrong…. I love the guy and hope he figures out something with the Chiefs,  let’s be honest…. Doesn’t CJ just seem to be the kind of dude that would value hanging out with his buddies and not going to hot, tough training camp practices more than the million or so he will lose in fines?  
 

Like the rest of you…. We shall see soon…