Chris Jones merged thread

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

18 hours ago, arthur75 said:

Actually its a very good argument.  So all these teams that are in salary cap hell is not because of bad contracts?  Wow I had it wrong all these years. 

Man I bet you are fun to argue with. You almost have to be deliberately obtuse to interpret what he said this way. 

Xen: We are in good cap shape going forward. Signing Jones won't change that.

Art: Well I guess we should just sign anyone we want then since bad contracts apparently don't impact the cap. 

[arthur75 415]

28 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

Man I bet you are fun to argue with. You almost have to be deliberately obtuse to interpret what he said this way. 

Xen: We are in good cap shape going forward. Signing Jones won't change that.

Art: Well I guess we should just sign anyone we want then since bad contracts apparently don't impact the cap. 

Let me try typing slower for you. Huge contracts for aging players is what handcuffs teams in the future. Signing Jones to a huge contract handcuffs teams ability to sign other players. Kind of shocked people do not understand that I will try to type slower next time.

[oldtimer 8,686]

5 minutes ago, arthur75 said:

Let me try typing slower for you. Huge contracts for aging players is what handcuffs teams in the future. Signing Jones to a huge contract handcuffs teams ability to sign other players. Kind of shocked people do not understand that I will try to type slower next time.

I'm praying for news of a CJ trade today  but is 29 yo and a 3-4 year contract for a DT which historically  dont drop off like speed players really really out of line? If you believe it is I disagree.

[arthur75 415]

1 minute ago, oldtimer said:

I'm praying for news of a CJ trade today  but is 29 yo and a 3-4 year contract for a DT which historically  dont drop off like speed players really really out of line? If you believe it is I disagree.

No honestly it just makes me nervous is all. I mean New England did not become a 20 year dynasty giving aging players big contracts. Maybe I am wrong would not be the first time but it just seems like Veach is hesitant for a reason.

[kkuenn 3,597]

5 minutes ago, arthur75 said:

No honestly it just makes me nervous is all. I mean New England did not become a 20 year dynasty giving aging players big contracts. Maybe I am wrong would not be the first time but it just seems like Veach is hesitant for a reason.

Older article but everyone should see just what it took for the patriots way.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/agents-explain-what-the-patriots-way-really-means-and-why-it-works

[kkuenn 3,597]

I think Jones falls into the standout players part of this.

 

• “One is the guy they draft low or sign as unrestricted and let him go when he wants money,” the veteran agent says.

• “Then there’s the malcontent. Corey Dillon, Randy Moss. He might not have the right personality for the team, but he comes for a year or two at below-market value, produces, and then when he wants money you let him go.”

• “Or they find a guy like LeGarrette Blount, Chris Long. Guys near the end of their career who want to win and still have something to offer.”

The final and most exclusive group is made up of players whom the Patriots end up paying market value. They are the standout players -- Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Devin McCourty -- who are believed to buy into the so-called Patriot Way and are integral to the team’s success at the time of their re-signing. “You might get a good deal from them,” says one agent, “but it wont be because you’re a good agent. It will be because they like the guy.”

[oldtimer 8,686]

16 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

I think Jones falls into the standout players part of this.

 

• “One is the guy they draft low or sign as unrestricted and let him go when he wants money,” the veteran agent says.

• “Then there’s the malcontent. Corey Dillon, Randy Moss. He might not have the right personality for the team, but he comes for a year or two at below-market value, produces, and then when he wants money you let him go.”

• “Or they find a guy like LeGarrette Blount, Chris Long. Guys near the end of their career who want to win and still have something to offer.”

The final and most exclusive group is made up of players whom the Patriots end up paying market value. They are the standout players -- Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Devin McCourty -- who are believed to buy into the so-called Patriot Way and are integral to the team’s success at the time of their re-signing. “You might get a good deal from them,” says one agent, “but it wont be because you’re a good agent. It will be because they like the guy.”

a much as I agree with your "Standout" player assessment I think he also now qualifies as a Malcontent without the bargain price

[mex 65,581]

9 hours ago, Lamardirts said:

Well we lost. I'm sure CJ's agents wanted that, but do any of you think this lost gave them any more leverage?  I actually believe it did the opposite.  The D held their own and looked solid vs a top offense.  Could be way off but I truly believe the leverage is completely in Veach and Co hands right now.  And I might want to report before Veach goes out and trades for a veteran WR.

Absolutely not. Defense was very good against a top notch OL. They only gave up 14 points in 4 quarters.

[mex 65,581]

2 hours ago, xen said:

we got virtually no pressure with the 4 man rush.

They got just as much pressure, if not a little more, than vs a similar dominant OL vs Philly. 

[oldtimer 8,686]

2 minutes ago, mex said:

Absolutely not. Defense was very good against a top notch OL. They only gave up 14 points in 4 quarters.

agreed it was expected that the Lions would run the ball down our throat controlling the clock then  target St whats his name after the LB/DBs started creeping up. Our D has nothing to be ashamed of this loss is squarely on the Offense and it's my fear that we may have gone from meh to vomit with our O-Tackles

[mex 65,581]

1 minute ago, oldtimer said:

agreed it was expected that the Lions would run the ball down our throat controlling the clock then  target St whats his name after the LB/DBs started creeping up. Our D has nothing to be ashamed of this loss is squarely on the Offense and it's my fear that we may have gone from meh to vomit with our O-Tackles

I don't agree about our OTs, OT. They played well and Hutch was having a career night, not because our OTs were bad. Much as I hate to admit it... that fucker is good... and the Detroit D is a force to be reckoned with. They're easily a playoff caliber team.

[Burpo The Mad Clown 5,555]

Bottom line:

Kelce’s greatness has covered for WR mediocrity for years. If Kelce had played, the Chiefs would have won and no one would be discussing the horrific receiver play. 

[DieHard 2,061]

21 hours ago, xen said:

That's not really the offer though, that's just counting new money and ignoring the current year salary.   Not ignoring the current year puts the total at less than 25 per for 3 years total.  There's a deal here to be done but veach gonna need to come up a little.  A true 28 per deal for 3 years for sure gets it done if you believe CJ, which puts it at 84m total.  I think the deal ultimately come in at low 80's for 3 years.

Still you are saying Jones make 19.5 this year, correct? That is only salary. You don’t count all the bonus money that gets him to 28.5 cap hit this year?

[oldtimer 8,686]

3 minutes ago, mex said:

I don't agree about our OTs, OT. They played well and Hutch was having a career night, not because our OTs were bad. Much as I hate to admit it... that fucker is good... and the Detroit D is a force to be reckoned with. They're easily a playoff caliber team.

well you dont get to be the #2 pick by sucking but  that RT was a veteran so you'd hope he had something up his sleeve. You maybe right and time will tell. MVPatrick was fighting for his life more often than not but with the camera angles or lack there of it may of been lack of WR Separation as well. Regardless color me concerned

[mex 65,581]

If you really look at the game... we did everything we needed to do to win this game.

Patrick was lights out.

OL was adequate vs a DL that will be one of the best in the league.

Karlaftis and Danna held their own against a very good OL.

Secondary held up for 4 quarters agaist a very good QB and without LB help.

Lots to be happy about here.

This game came down to a few egregious, uncustomary errors:

Dropped passes (reminding me of the first quarter vs HOU in the 2020 playoffs.

An unusual fluke play... a perfectly thrown 1st down pass that bounced and handed them the game-winning TD.

A badly-timed 'Andy getting cute' play.

Detroit is a playoff caliber team.  As good as Detroit played, they had to LUCK OUT to beat us... all while we were missing 2 of our 3 best players.

Step away from the edge fellas.

 

[mex 65,581]

11 minutes ago, Nadlers Quivering Balls said:

Bottom line:

Kelce’s greatness has covered for WR mediocrity for years. If Kelce had played, the Chiefs would have won and no one would be discussing the horrific receiver play. 

I don't agree Burps. The WR group had a very unusual night. Yes they weren't lights out.

We should have won that game without Kelce. It's not like we got totally shut down. They dropped passes, very uncharacteristic, then they handed Detroit an easy 7 that won the game.

Defense was awesome against a well-coached offense.

OL did good against a VERY good DL.

The WRs will be fixed. Bet on it.

[mex 65,581]

14 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

well you dont get to be the #2 pick by sucking but  that RT was a veteran so you'd hope he had something up his sleeve. You maybe right and time will tell. MVPatrick was fighting for his life more often than not but with the camera angles or lack there of it may of been lack of WR Separation as well. Regardless color me concerned

Oh, I'm concerned too. But no more than the last 4 years.

[kkuenn 3,597]

28 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

agreed it was expected that the Lions would run the ball down our throat controlling the clock then  target St whats his name after the LB/DBs started creeping up. Our D has nothing to be ashamed of this loss is squarely on the Offense and it's my fear that we may have gone from meh to vomit with our O-Tackles

I thought they did a good job.  Van you imagine Wiley in there this game? So much so they moved Hutch inside against Trey and he had trouble. 

[oldtimer 8,686]

going against guys like Hutch although few and far in-between shows where we could of used a FB  that and when the Chiefs need 2 yrds..maybe the Bell dozer could of fit that roll if TK was on the field? 

[Okiechief1 425]

8 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

going against guys like Hutch although few and far in-between shows where we could of used a FB  that and when the Chiefs need 2 yrds..maybe the Bell dozer could of fit that roll if TK was on the field? 

Why not just do the scrum thing that philly does or if they are afraid of pat going into that casue of the sneak a few yrs ago have bell or gray take the snap and go right behind the strength of creed thuney and smith on 3rd and short.  

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

2 hours ago, arthur75 said:

Let me try typing slower for you. Huge contracts for aging players is what handcuffs teams in the future. Signing Jones to a huge contract handcuffs teams ability to sign other players. Kind of shocked people do not understand that I will try to type slower next time.

No one said that giving top of market money to players on 3rd contracts was a good idea. All he said was that signing Jones wouldn't cripple us going forward w regard to the cap. 

[oldtimer 8,686]

3 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

No one said that giving top of market money to players on 3rd contracts was a good idea. All he said was that signing Jones wouldn't cripple us going forward w regard to the cap. 

maybe try typing slower next time 

[xen 1,010,220]

47 minutes ago, DieHard said:

Still you are saying Jones make 19.5 this year, correct? That is only salary. You don’t count all the bonus money that gets him to 28.5 cap hit this year?

No cap hit and cash outlay are not treated the same.  Cap hit is just accounting techniques and probably would not really enter in to the negotiation other than to guide our offer breakdown for this year.

[xen 1,010,220]

57 minutes ago, mex said:

I don't agree about our OTs, OT. They played well and Hutch was having a career night, not because our OTs were bad. Much as I hate to admit it... that fucker is good... and the Detroit D is a force to be reckoned with. They're easily a playoff caliber team.

Most of his pressure came while lined up inside on Trey Smith.  Agreed the tackles held up well for their first game.  OLine always takes time to incorporate new people.  That's just the way it is so I have high hopes for them.

[arthur75 415]

14 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

No one said that giving top of market money to players on 3rd contracts was a good idea. All he said was that signing Jones wouldn't cripple us going forward w regard to the cap. 

And I disagree. I think giving Jones a huge contract would hurt the cap in the long run with how many young players gonna be up for new contracts in the next couple years. 2 being on the offensive line. I think last night proved that I will agree a small sample but I still think it proves that Jones does not make or break this team.