Who would you rather have?

[kccrow 529]

Sacks aren't the end-all-be-all metric. One factor is that Mahomes decreases his O-line's sack numbers because of his awareness and mobility. This, in turn, affects Mahomes' ability to find open targets downfield. Penalties kill drives as much as a sack will and there are only a finite number of drives per game. Do I prefer a penalty over Mahomes getting smacked? Sure, but that's the only silver lining in any of it. Our set of tackles, and Trey Smith, have not been very good this year. It's as much an issue as the lack of talent and consistency at WR. 

[mex 65,581]

10 minutes ago, kccrow said:

Sacks aren't the end-all-be-all metric. One factor is that Mahomes decreases his O-line's sack numbers because of his awareness and mobility. This, in turn, affects Mahomes' ability to find open targets downfield. Penalties kill drives as much as a sack will and there are only a finite number of drives per game. Do I prefer a penalty over Mahomes getting smacked? Sure, but that's the only silver lining in any of it. Our set of tackles, and Trey Smith, have not been very good this year. It's as much an issue as the lack of talent and consistency at WR. 

I get that sacks aren't a tell-all metric, but show me the stats that say our tackles suck.

Every QB in the league has plays where they're running for their lives. Buffalo arguably has one of the best lines in the NFL... and yet we're right there with them, except, they might not even make the playoffs. And philly? The best team in the league? They've given up more than twice the sacks we have, with an equally mobile QB and 50+ fewer attempts.

Sorry I just don't see it.

[jetlord 10,207]

It been reported that Mahomes had 3.8 seconds average time yesterday which is higher than last year's average and very good.  He waits longer than most QBs and maybe the WRs are not giving him the early targets, but that's not on the O-line. 

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

3 hours ago, mex said:

I'd much rather have a 10 yard holding call, than a 9 yard sack with Patrick limping to the sideline.

No kidding.  Me, too. 

Some may not realize that these guys are under marching orders to take penalties to protect The Franchise.  The cornerbacks are also expected to get PI penalties rather than let a top WR get past everyone and score. There is strategy to a lot of kinds of penalties just like everything else. A quick calculation of "which thing is worse?" Getting Mahomes hurt is by far the worst.

[Boone 304]

10 hours ago, mex said:

Our OL is FINE. Long as they stay healthy.

We're (along with Buff) BY FAR the least sacked team in the NFL. The Steelers are in the top 30% of teams in this category, and they have allowed almost twice the sacks as the Chiefs with 71 fewer drop-backs.

I mean, what will it take to make you guys happy?

I'd much rather have a 10 yard holding call, than a 9 yard sack with Patrick limping to the sideline. 

Notice that the first 8 least-sacked teams still have their starting QB playing.  I'll take keeping Pat clean even if it means taking a holding call.  Holding issues can be coached, an injured QB can't be.

[kccrow 529]

9 hours ago, jetlord said:

It been reported that Mahomes had 3.8 seconds average time yesterday which is higher than last year's average and very good.  He waits longer than most QBs and maybe the WRs are not giving him the early targets, but that's not on the O-line. 

The statistic you're reading from isn't one kept to illustrate how good the O-Line is, though lower sack numbers despite it is a positive. It is an indictment against the WRs or a view of how good the coverage is against the WRs. QBs are better the lower that number is, generally. The fact that Patrick is still performing at a high level despite his time to throw being higher is good, it's not that the time to throw being high is better.

Taylor and Trey Smith are both in the top 10 in penalties right now, in the NFL as a whole, not simply as offensive linemen. 7 of their combined 21 are holding penalties. Kelce has 5 more penalties and Donovan Smith has 4. Of those additional 9, 4 of them are holding. Creed also chips in with 2 more holding penalties. That's 13 accepted holding penalties on our primary blockers in 11 games. I haven't gone through and looked at every team in the NFL for comparison, but at first glance, it looks exceptionally higher than most. If that is the case, that moves us more to a middle-of-the-pack line in terms of negative plays.

What I can get on board with is the theory that if our WRs were uncovering more quickly and that time to throw went down, there would be fewer holding penalties and thus, fewer negative plays. No matter what though, Taylor and T Smith need to play better football. 

[kccrow 529]

Taking a penalty to not let Patrick get creamed is kind of a "well fucking duh" thing don't you guys think? Making that your point of argument doesn't really help your cause. In the end, whether Patrick gets dumped or the O-Line is taking the penalty, it's a negative play on the O-Line that generally kills a drive. They have the exact same effect, sans Pat getting hit. The stat Jet provided helps the argument slightly in that it's clear, based on Pat's time to throw, that he isn't getting an open look as quickly as he has in the past. We knew that, mostly, because the receivers aren't that great. The real question is just how much is poor WR play affecting the O-line? Is it as profound as the penalty stats indicate or is some of it just bad O-line play too? 

[kkuenn 3,597]

42 minutes ago, kccrow said:

Taking a penalty to not let Patrick get creamed is kind of a "well fucking duh" thing don't you guys think? Making that your point of argument doesn't really help your cause. In the end, whether Patrick gets dumped or the O-Line is taking the penalty, it's a negative play on the O-Line that generally kills a drive. They have the exact same effect, sans Pat getting hit. The stat Jet provided helps the argument slightly in that it's clear, based on Pat's time to throw, that he isn't getting an open look as quickly as he has in the past. We knew that, mostly, because the receivers aren't that great. The real question is just how much is poor WR play affecting the O-line? Is it as profound as the penalty stats indicate or is some of it just bad O-line play too? 

Another thing that would take some looking into is the passing plays that were dropped or ran wrong etc by the wr. If they create many third and longs as an example,  it puts a lot more pressure on the o line to protect Mahomes in such obvious passing plays.  So many times we see the dropped 6 harder that leads 3rd and long when it could be a much more manageable play call.

[mex 65,581]

2 hours ago, kccrow said:

Taking a penalty to not let Patrick get creamed is kind of a "well fucking duh" thing don't you guys think? Making that your point of argument doesn't really help your cause.

You brought up the holding calls in your criticism of our tackle play.

[jetlord 10,207]

No data to back it up, but I think Patrick holds the ball longer than the average QB.  That was the case even with Hill or JuJu on the team.  He seems to hold for a long time and then start his scramble.  Much of his success came from extending the play and not throwing risky passes.  Without Hill, waiting isn't always breaking someone open.  Of course, a holding penalty is better than a sack for two reasons.  The QB isn't getting killed and the offense gets the down over.  

[Lamardirts 2,114]

There is an assumption that those holding calls prevent a sack therefore they are tolerable because they in theory keep our qb healthy.  You would need to see how many of those holds are on run plays, how many were called in close proximity to Mahomes and thus would potentially prevent a sack, and which holds aren't any where near Mahomes.  

I am in the camp that taking a hold over getting Mahomes hit is acceptable because he can make up a 10 yard penalty better than any qb in history.  But.....

the holdings overall need to be cleaned up.  I'm not sure that many actually protected Mahomes.  A few I remember were probably done in the attempt to protect but really had no bearing on the play had they just let their man go.   By all means take the holding if its going to prevent your qb from being killed but some are just bad penalties that kill drives.   This year we aren't as capable of overcoming those penalties because we lack weapons.   

Jawaan Taylor isn't a bad tackle but he is being paid to be a great tackle and he isn't playing up to that level.   Donovan Smith is what he is and is a mixed bag.   Would actually like to see Wanya get a little run if we can build a lead on some teams.  See what we have in him long term.

Our team is good enough to win a SB and if they clean up these penalties we might be able to do it easier than many of us believer possible.

 

[mex 65,581]

1 minute ago, Lamardirts said:

There is an assumption that those holding calls prevent a sack therefore they are tolerable because they in theory keep our qb healthy.  You would need to see how many of those holds are on run plays, how many were called in close proximity to Mahomes and thus would potentially prevent a sack, and which holds aren't any where near Mahomes.  

I am in the camp that taking a hold over getting Mahomes hit is acceptable because he can make up a 10 yard penalty better than any qb in history.  But.....

the holdings overall need to be cleaned up.  I'm not sure that many actually protected Mahomes.  A few I remember were probably done in the attempt to protect but really had no bearing on the play had they just let their man go.   By all means take the holding if its going to prevent your qb from being killed but some are just bad penalties that kill drives.   This year we aren't as capable of overcoming those penalties because we lack weapons.   

Jawaan Taylor isn't a bad tackle but he is being paid to be a great tackle and he isn't playing up to that level.   Donovan Smith is what he is and is a mixed bag.   Would actually like to see Wanya get a little run if we can build a lead on some teams.  See what we have in him long term.

Our team is good enough to win a SB and if they clean up these penalties we might be able to do it easier than many of us believer possible.

 

The tackles don't know if Patrick is in the pocket or if it has broken down. They must assume if a rusher is getting by them it will be bad news for the QB... it's not like they know if they're close to him or not

[jetlord 10,207]

13 minutes ago, mex said:

The tackles don't know if Patrick is in the pocket or if it has broken down. They must assume if a rusher is getting by them it will be bad news for the QB... it's not like they know if they're close to him or not

Good point, but Kelce got a hold and Taylor got one on a CEH first down run.  Those weren't protecting Mahomes.  

[mex 65,581]

11 hours ago, jetlord said:

Good point, but Kelce got a hold and Taylor got one on a CEH first down run.  Those weren't protecting Mahomes.  

Sure... but the pace of the game sometimes dictates a player take the chance on a hold or be seen as failing at their job on film. I've never played in the NFL so I'm not going to judge Kelce for an occasional hold. Yeah, it sucks when it happens, especially on a run play, but it is what it is. it's the job of the coaches to minimize it.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

They can instantly see if guys in front of them are using their hands to put pressure on the QB and get past them or if they are trying to shed blocks and move through gaps next to them.  Any tackle can see immediately if a defensive player is trying to get around them or push them back or get past them, if they are experienced at all or have done their homework, they can see what is happening by the way the defense is lining up.  All of that happens in front of them or right next to them. So, I disagree with the first paragraph in Lamardirt's post about running vs. passing plays and their relationship to holding calls by offensive tackles and guards. Most important of all, is they know what was called by the QB before the snap or in a huddle.

[jetlord 10,207]

3 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

They can instantly see if guys in front of them are using their hands to put pressure on the QB and get past them or if they are trying to shed blocks and move through gaps next to them.  Any tackle can see immediately if a defensive player is trying to get around them or push them back or get past them, if they are experienced at all or have done their homework, they can see what is happening by the way the defense is lining up.  All of that happens in front of them or right next to them. So, I disagree with the first paragraph in Lamardirt's post about running vs. passing plays and their relationship to holding calls by offensive tackles and guards. Most important of all, is they know what was called by the QB before the snap or in a huddle.

Are you considering that Mahomes often drops back, waits, then scrambles to a new spot or takes off running.  I doubt a OT can anticipate that well enough to know how to block for over three seconds.  

[reesebobby 5,661]

2 minutes ago, jetlord said:

Are you considering that Mahomes often drops back, waits, then scrambles to a new spot or takes off running.  I doubt a OT can anticipate that well enough to know how to block for over three seconds.  

I'm having trouble finding a T Swift gif for that.  

[reesebobby 5,661]

Got it.

[jetlord 10,207]

5 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

I'm having trouble finding a T Swift gif for that.  

We'll forgive you if you don't come up with one. 

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

1 hour ago, jetlord said:

Are you considering that Mahomes often drops back, waits, then scrambles to a new spot or takes off running.  I doubt a OT can anticipate that well enough to know how to block for over three seconds.  

Good point. But the holding penalties usually occur at the tail end of a play where the guy who is caught for holding already knows he is beaten, not at the beginning of a play.

[jetlord 10,207]

7 minutes ago, Fmbl2187 said:

Good point. But the holding penalties usually occur at the tail end of a play where the guy who is caught for holding already knows he is beaten, not at the beginning of a play.

That was kind of my point.  At the end of the play, no one knows where Mahomes will scramble to.  (- 5 for hanging preposition)

[mex 65,581]

41 minutes ago, jetlord said:

That was kind of my point.  At the end of the play, no one knows where Mahomes will scramble to.  (- 5 for hanging preposition)

I don't know what you'd lose 5 points for.

[reesebobby 5,661]

1 hour ago, jetlord said:

That was kind of my point.  At the end of the play, no one knows where Mahomes will scramble to.  (- 5 for hanging preposition)

Are you the grammy police?

[jetlord 10,207]

2 hours ago, mex said:

I don't know what you'd lose 5 points for.

Just wanted to point out my faulty grammar before Bil did it.  🙂

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

2 hours ago, mex said:

I don't know what you'd lose 5 points for.

Hanging preposition.    Good one, Mex.