It's just as I thought...

[mex 65,581]

It's easy to blame our horrible passing numbers on the OL, especially Taylor, who seems to find new ways every game to piss us off. 

But is this really the case? Closer examination of the numbers reveals Patrick's average time in pocket is top-tier this season, only bettered by Hurts, Stroud, Purdy and Jackson. 

Patrick has the same amount of pocket time as Jordan Love, Matthew Stafford and Russell Wilson... three QBs who beat us.

He enjoys more time in the pocket than Allen, Herbert and Pickett. 

He has a full 12% more time in the pocket than Joe Burrow, Trev Lawrence and Tua.

His pressures are higher that those above him, but that's because he's having to hold the ball longer to find a receiver.

This ain't ALL on our tackles fellas.

Obviously our receivers are not getting into their spaces on time. That's on them. It could be the playcalling too, where Andy just ain't fooling teams anymore, allowing defenses to take more risks.

My gut tells me it's a combination of both.  Pretty clear this is an ANDY problem. 

[Lamardirts 2,114]

That's good news in the sense that we may have found our LT moving forward and only had to use a 3rd round pick on him which will go a long long way towards resigning some of our key players as well as signing an extra FA or two.  From the looks of it, replenishing the talent at wr could take the spot light off our tackles and back on the greatest of this O.  

The one issue that I do worry about that you brought up is the apparent staleness of our O and I think that can be attributed to not diversifying your coaching staff enough.  Different ideas can often times push staffs to be innovative and on the cutting edge always hiring from within can become an echo chamber of ideas the NFL has adjusted too.  If that is the problem I don't know what can be done about it without staff change which Andy seems reluctant to do.

[Holmes4six! 968]

35 minutes ago, mex said:

It's easy to blame our horrible passing numbers on the OL, especially Taylor, who seems to find new ways every game to piss us off. 

But is this really the case? Closer examination of the numbers reveals Patrick's average time in pocket is top-tier this season, only bettered by Hurts, Stroud, Purdy and Jackson. 

Patrick has the same amount of pocket time as Jordan Love, Matthew Stafford and Russell Wilson... three QBs who beat us.

He enjoys more time in the pocket than Allen, Herbert and Pickett. 

He has a full 12% more time in the pocket than Joe Burrow, Trev Lawrence and Tua.

His pressures are higher that those above him, but that's because he's having to hold the ball longer to find a receiver.

This ain't ALL on our tackles fellas.

Obviously our receivers are not getting into their spaces on time. That's on them. It could be the playcalling too, where Andy just ain't fooling teams anymore, allowing defenses to take more risks.

My gut tells me it's a combination of both.  Pretty clear this is an ANDY problem. 

You are correct but our tackles, on RT last two games have been flagged at league high clip at crucial times. 
Haven’t heard Morris name called for a penalty in two games. 
Our tackle’s are getting paid like they are premium but the play is not. 
There is a combination of our crappy wr plus play calling at times. 
 

[mex 65,581]

4 minutes ago, Holmes4six! said:

You are correct but our tackles, on RT last two games have been flagged at league high clip at crucial times. 
Haven’t heard Morris name called for a penalty in two games. 
Our tackle’s are getting paid like they are premium but the play is not. 
There is a combination of our crappy wr plus play calling at times. 
 

While I agree the penalties have been high, largely due to Taylor, their play hasn't been BAD. It's easy to blame them when Patrick has to hold on to the ball longer than at any time in his career. 

I don't know what the problem is. For it to go on so long makes me suspect it's coaching and playcalling, as much as it is underperforming players.

I'm no expert, but there are a lot of QBs doing better than Patrick with less time. This is a direct factor of holding on to the ball trying to find an open receiver on EVERY FUCKING PLAY.

I keep hoping they'll snap out of it... but they just can't seem to get there. Which makes me think defenses aren't respecting Andy's playcalling. 

[SEMO 6,811]

4 minutes ago, mex said:

While I agree the penalties have been high, largely due to Taylor, their play hasn't been BAD. It's easy to blame them when Patrick has to hold on to the ball longer than at any time in his career. 

I don't know what the problem is. For it to go on so long makes me suspect it's coaching and playcalling, as much as it is underperforming players.

I'm no expert, but there are a lot of QBs doing better than Patrick with less time. This is a direct factor of holding on to the ball trying to find an open receiver on EVERY FUCKING PLAY.

I keep hoping they'll snap out of it... but they just can't seem to get there. Which makes me think defenses aren't respecting Andy's playcalling. 

Can’t snap out of it, if it is a lack of talent.  And outside of Rice, this receiving core is sorely lacking on talent.

[mex 65,581]

2 minutes ago, SEMO said:

Can’t snap out of it, if it is a lack of talent.  And outside of Rice, this receiving core is sorely lacking on talent.

Which kills me because MVS and Toney are supposedly fast. It's not JUST a lack of talent. It's more than that. There's something else going on.

[kkuenn 3,597]

It's like the D line and CB argument. If the d line can't get pressures it puts stress on the CB. Same here, the WR can't get open and the line has to block longer, then Mahomes forced to scramble which makes them block more. Fix the WR#1 and I think it goes a long ways making us elite type offense again.

A WR1 with Rice as 2 and Kelce, ones that can catch and contest the ball, helps it all go much better. Calvin Ridley? I think Ridley signs for less than Higgins. Ridley is 6'1" 190 pounds but ran a 4.3 40. Higgins is 6'4" 220 pounds but ran a 4.5 40.  Who do we need more? Rice is 6'1" also but at 205 pounds and ran a 4.5 40. I think we go for Ridley and his speed.

[SEMO 6,811]

Just now, mex said:

Which kills me because MVS and Toney are supposedly fast. It's not JUST a lack of talent. It's more than that. There's something else going on.

I don’t know either.  MVS is what he has always been.  Moore just doesn’t seem to be developing.  He hasn’t played receiver that long so maybe he needs another year.  How long do they wait, though.  Watson gets open but misses easy balls, while making the difficult catches.  Haven’t seen enough of James or Ross.  And we know what Hardman is.

The playcalling seems more vanilla, than stale.  Is Andy holding too much stuff back, or does he just not have the faith in the receivers to execute?

 

[Calichief 3,016]

15 minutes ago, SEMO said:

I don’t know either.  MVS is what he has always been.  Moore just doesn’t seem to be developing.  He hasn’t played receiver that long so maybe he needs another year.  How long do they wait, though.  Watson gets open but misses easy balls, while making the difficult catches.  Haven’t seen enough of James or Ross.  And we know what Hardman is.

The playcalling seems more vanilla, than stale.  Is Andy holding too much stuff back, or does he just not have the faith in the receivers to execute?

 

You don’t hold back when suck like this on offense. And haven’t solidified a playoff birth

[THEWIZARD 247]

28 minutes ago, SEMO said:

I don’t know either.  MVS is what he has always been.  Moore just doesn’t seem to be developing.  He hasn’t played receiver that long so maybe he needs another year.  How long do they wait, though.  Watson gets open but misses easy balls, while making the difficult catches.  Haven’t seen enough of James or Ross.  And we know what Hardman is.

The playcalling seems more vanilla, than stale.  Is Andy holding too much stuff back, or does he just not have the faith in the receivers to execute?

 

I think that last sentence hit the nail on the head.

 

[oldtimer 8,684]

56 minutes ago, mex said:

Which kills me because MVS and Toney are supposedly fast. It's not JUST a lack of talent. It's more than that. There's something else going on.

I never had the notion that MVS was fast..never did even in GB that being said I was always under the impression KT was quick but not fast.. there is difference

either way I was Gobsmacked when KT put on his helmet after that one play.. it is impossible for me to believe there is not somebody to  play in his spot and have KT regulated to  Kick returns. I dont understand

[Lamardirts 2,114]

1 hour ago, mex said:

While I agree the penalties have been high, largely due to Taylor, their play hasn't been BAD. It's easy to blame them when Patrick has to hold on to the ball longer than at any time in his career. 

I don't know what the problem is. For it to go on so long makes me suspect it's coaching and playcalling, as much as it is underperforming players.

I'm no expert, but there are a lot of QBs doing better than Patrick with less time. This is a direct factor of holding on to the ball trying to find an open receiver on EVERY FUCKING PLAY.

I keep hoping they'll snap out of it... but they just can't seem to get there. Which makes me think defenses aren't respecting Andy's playcalling. 

So are we looking at play calling (eg longer developing route concepts, or delays in processing by the wr to adjust to defenses) or just overall poor wr play?   Both maybe?  It appears when we play a good defense we employ the short game strategy and do it well but then when we play a team we should beat handedly we go back to some longer developing plays.  

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

I don't think this is a topic that requires in depth investigation.

We wasted cap dollars on Jawaan taylor that could have gone to bring in actually useful players.

MVS, Skyy Moore, and Toney are dog shittttt. They expected those 3 to be above average nfl players. MVS and Moore and simply not nfl caliber athletes, and toney may not have the football IQ level required to play.

[Lamardirts 2,114]

11 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

I never had the notion that MVS was fast..never did even in GB that being said I was always under the impression KT was quick but not fast.. there is difference

either way I was Gobsmacked when KT put on his helmet after that one play.. it is impossible for me to believe there is not somebody to  play in his spot and have KT regulated to  Kick returns. I dont understand

MVS has long speed but not burst speed and he is not quick at all and to make matters worse he plays like a tiny wr.  Toney is just as quick as Hill but his track speed isn't even in the same conversation.  He can juke but he can't run away from anyone.  

Trade Toney and Moore for some late round picks or swaps.   Toney is talented but he isn't disciplined.  That is not what you want in your lockerroom.   You want gym rats with talent.  Find guys that want to win as badly as Mahomes and Kelce.  As poor as our talent is we have lost 3 games this year on mental mistakes alone.  That is on coaching and veteran leaders.  Mahomes at some point is going to have to realize that pleasing everyone isn't possible and if he truly wants to track down Brady then he is going to have to be that a-hole at times that demands accountability or he throws his weight around and gets guys benched.  It starts this year. 

[oldtimer 8,684]

Just now, CranjisMcbasketball said:

I don't think this is a topic that requires in depth investigation.

We wasted cap dollars on Jawaan taylor that could have gone to bring in actually useful players.

MVS, Skyy Moore, and Toney are dog shittttt. They expected those 3 to be above average nfl players. MVS and Moore and simply not nfl caliber athletes, and toney may not have the football IQ level required to play.

sometimes you win and sometimes you lose..Veach seems to be able to pull DB's out his ass..WR's not so much. I attribute it to the thought that Pat can make a D rated WR into a B+. I hope that lesson has been learned

[jetlord 10,207]

Has Toney always had a drop problem and done stupid stuff?  He played pretty well last season after coming to the Chiefs and while maybe not a #1 quality WR, he should have been able to contribute.  What happened?  Maybe he was always a head case. 

[Thegoatee 1,780]

This team leads the NFL in drops. That is the stat that explains all this best. The WRs are not good enough to make NFL rosters based on their performances. MVS, Moore, Watson, and Toney are all guys who are no longer in the NFL by 2026.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

For what it is worth, my wife might have figured out what is wrong with Toney and his drops.  She noticed that a tiny fraction of a second before his drop today, before the ball came into his hands, he turned his head slighty to look up field and adjusted his feet to make a big run after catch.  I looked at the re-run, and that was definitely what happened.  I am beginning to think that the guy is so desperate to save his career and make some spectacular juking play that will gain him huge yardage after the catch.  It is just a tiny instant, but he is thinking ahead to his major talent of running rather than looking the ball into his hands.  His head hadn't turned enough to not see the ball, but his brain was obviously already thinking about YAC. I don't know if that can be fixed.  It may or may not. I would choose the "not" likelihood and let him go this offseason and not trust him to catch the ball the remainder of this season. I am done with him.

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

1 hour ago, oldtimer said:

sometimes you win and sometimes you lose..Veach seems to be able to pull DB's out his ass..WR's not so much. I attribute it to the thought that Pat can make a D rated WR into a B+. I hope that lesson has been learned

Yeah i agree.

veach seems to excel at drafting dbs, linebackers, and interior o lineman.

unfortunately when it comes to d line and wr he seems to be below average, which is a shame because it could be argued qb, d line, and wr are the most important positions in the nfl currently. Sadly linebacker and secondary just aren’t as impactful as d line.

this also relates to paying sneed. We have to consider since veach is good at drafting dbs it may not be smart to spend cap dollars on a corner, may need to use cap space on wr to overcome his drafting deficiencies

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

50 minutes ago, Fmbl2187 said:

For what it is worth, my wife might have figured out what is wrong with Toney and his drops.  She noticed that a tiny fraction of a second before his drop today, before the ball came into his hands, he turned his head slighty to look up field and adjusted his feet to make a big run after catch.  I looked at the re-run, and that was definitely what happened.  I am beginning to think that the guy is so desperate to save his career and make some spectacular juking play that will gain him huge yardage after the catch.  It is just a tiny instant, but he is thinking ahead to his major talent of running rather than looking the ball into his hands.  His head hadn't turned enough to not see the ball, but his brain was obviously already thinking about YAC. I don't know if that can be fixed.  It may or may not. I would choose the "not" likelihood and let him go this offseason and not trust him to catch the ball the remainder of this season. I am done with him.

Yes, Toney needs to go, he problem is cutting him after the season is a 2.5 million dollar dead cap hit.

conversly skyy moore being cut saves about 900,000 on the cap, and cutting MVS saves 12 million on the cap.

therefore we can be 100% certain MVS will be cut asap.

skyy moore will probably be cut during camp unless he shows some sort of miraculous level of improvement 

and we might be stuck with toney for another season unless they think spending 2.5 mil on the cap to free the roster spot is worth it

[oldtimer 8,684]

32 minutes ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

Yes, Toney needs to go, he problem is cutting him after the season is a 2.5 million dollar dead cap hit.

conversly skyy moore being cut saves about 900,000 on the cap, and cutting MVS saves 12 million on the cap.

therefore we can be 100% certain MVS will be cut asap.

skyy moore will probably be cut during camp unless he shows some sort of miraculous level of improvement 

and we might be stuck with toney for another season unless they think spending 2.5 mil on the cap to free the roster spot is worth it

a $2.5M cap hit is chkn feed

[mex 65,581]

2 hours ago, oldtimer said:

I never had the notion that MVS was fast..never did even in GB that being said I was always under the impression KT was quick but not fast.. there is difference

either way I was Gobsmacked when KT put on his helmet after that one play.. it is impossible for me to believe there is not somebody to  play in his spot and have KT regulated to  Kick returns. I dont understand

I don't either. We know Andy is super loyal... maybe we're seeing it in the extreme. It's just so damned frustrating. And that's for us fans... imagine being Patrick.

[mex 65,581]

2 hours ago, Lamardirts said:

So are we looking at play calling (eg longer developing route concepts, or delays in processing by the wr to adjust to defenses) or just overall poor wr play?   Both maybe?  It appears when we play a good defense we employ the short game strategy and do it well but then when we play a team we should beat handedly we go back to some longer developing plays.  

Gotta be both. All I know is, average defenses have absolutely no respect for our passing game. It's up to the WRs to work. It's up to Andy to exploit the opposition's overconfidence.

[mex 65,581]

1 hour ago, jetlord said:

Has Toney always had a drop problem and done stupid stuff?  He played pretty well last season after coming to the Chiefs and while maybe not a #1 quality WR, he should have been able to contribute.  What happened?  Maybe he was always a head case. 

"I can fix him with kindness."

-Andy Reid

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

1 hour ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

Yes, Toney needs to go, he problem is cutting him after the season is a 2.5 million dollar dead cap hit.

conversly skyy moore being cut saves about 900,000 on the cap, and cutting MVS saves 12 million on the cap.

therefore we can be 100% certain MVS will be cut asap.

skyy moore will probably be cut during camp unless he shows some sort of miraculous level of improvement 

and we might be stuck with toney for another season unless they think spending 2.5 mil on the cap to free the roster spot is worth it

Obviously, then, cutting MVS will save more of the difference of the hit we take for cutting Toney.  Getting rid of all three will still net enough to get an established FA. Then trade up in the draft to take one of the many spectacular WR's coming in the next draft. Yeah, I think it is worth the 2.5 million to free up the roster space. Poor Mahomes is beside himself.  You can see it on his face.  He needs weapons to be fully who he can be.  Same with Kelce.  He can still be great if we have one more threat at WR to keep him from being double teamed all game.