It's just as I thought...

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

2 hours ago, mex said:

I don't either. We know Andy is super loyal... maybe we're seeing it in the extreme. It's just so damned frustrating. And that's for us fans... imagine being Patrick.

Remember, they always put someone who has made a bad play or mistake right back in and often get the ball to him just to prevent him from getting too down on himself.  Overall, it's a good strategy.  We have seen it a thousand times, and it probably helps most of the time.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

4 hours ago, jetlord said:

Has Toney always had a drop problem and done stupid stuff?  He played pretty well last season after coming to the Chiefs and while maybe not a #1 quality WR, he should have been able to contribute.  What happened?  Maybe he was always a head case. 

Maybe.  But again, I think he anticipates his run.  His head is thinking about getting up field with the ball in advance of his actually getting the ball, and that prevents him from either getting the ball or securing it before he starts running with it.  I don't think he is confused or stupid, just anticipates the next thing his body has to do. Having played music for years in a large jazz ensemble, I know you can't anticipate or the whole thing will come unraveled. Everyone has to think together with everyone else in mind.  Anticipation is a killer in music.  Football only works with multiple players in exactly the same way. The only exception is something like Mahomes and Kelce, where they both know exactly what the other it going to do and where they will be and when, so they can anticipate each other on improvised plays. It seems like magic, but it's more like a mind meld.

[ChiefThunder 153]

I honestly think we miss EB's style of coaching. After watching his interviews, the things he talks about a lot is working on small details, accountability (players holding each other accountable), work hard and play fast. Other than that, I agree it's a combo of our WR's and Andy 

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

8 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

Obviously, then, cutting MVS will save more of the difference of the hit we take for cutting Toney.  Getting rid of all three will still net enough to get an established FA. Then trade up in the draft to take one of the many spectacular WR's coming in the next draft. Yeah, I think it is worth the 2.5 million to free up the roster space. Poor Mahomes is beside himself.  You can see it on his face.  He needs weapons to be fully who he can be.  Same with Kelce.  He can still be great if we have one more threat at WR to keep him from being double teamed all game.

I dont think Moore or Toney will be released this offseason. Ironically, for the exact reasons you stated. They are on cap friendly deals. And as bottom of the depth chart guys they are both fine. The problem is that we were counting on them to be near or at the TOP of the depth chart this season and it's a gamble that has backfired.

It's not the end of the world. But we do have a clear picture of the give and take necessary to try and navigate the cap while not having many weaknesses on the roster and a QB being paid top of the market money.

Veach is human. He has a really hard job and he's going to make mistakes. We dealt with guys like Sorenson and Niemann on defense for years. He addressed that. Went DB heavy in the draft 2 yrs ago and drafted a LB in rd 2 in consecutive years. Now we have a damn good defense. 

Next year the pendulum will likely swing back the other way. We will have to accept losing some combo of Gay, Sneed and Jones in free agency. To free up money for playmakers on offense. 

Thus the balancing act continues...

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

That is a longer term view than the tunnel vision in my post.  You are right in all respects. Veach never fails to surprise us, though, so we should be prepared for anything.

[Okiechief1 425]

14 hours ago, mex said:

Which kills me because MVS and Toney are supposedly fast. It's not JUST a lack of talent. It's more than that. There's something else going on.

Frustration

We knew going in this is what MVS  was.  Toney I don’t recall having this issue last year or even with his time in NY.  He couldn’t stay healthy was his biggest issue.  Maybe can’t handle the pressure of being relied upon more and trying to do too much and it’s just snowballed     No matter what it is you can see Mahomes getting visibly frustrated during the games which isn’t good.  
 

Going forward Rice James Watson and Hardman as your primary guys and maybe mix Mckinion in running routes as they don’t need spectacular just reliable.  Pats won their last SB with guys that  knew where they supposed to be and caught what was thrown to them and I don’t really recall them having somebody you had too worry about deep    Keep mvs toney and Moore on the bench.  

[West 6,713]

This offense is based around speed and the best QB in football.....Toney and Hardman have speed.....Hardman is a better reciever and we gave up a pick for the guy.

We do not win the Super Bowl without Toney last year.....He has a "concentration" problem as was pointed out earlier.....so they will try to fix "him".

Skyy is cheap and will get another year.

MVS is a goner.  He can fund a more than adequate replacement.

We have to find ways to keep Sneed, Gay and hopefully Jones......These guys are the real deal.

[KC Warpaint 3,234]

24 minutes ago, West said:

This offense is based around speed and the best QB in football.....Toney and Hardman have speed.....Hardman is a better reciever and we gave up a pick for the guy.

We do not win the Super Bowl without Toney last year.....He has a "concentration" problem as was pointed out earlier.....so they will try to fix "him".

Skyy is cheap and will get another year.

MVS is a goner.  He can fund a more than adequate replacement.

We have to find ways to keep Sneed, Gay and hopefully Jones......These guys are the real deal.

Veach can fill more holes or problem positions on this team by letting Jones walk. He has made it clear thru his actions at the start of the season that he wants the bag and, so let some other team like the jets or panthers give him his money

[mex 65,581]

 

[jetlord 10,207]

How bad would Toney, Moore, and Hardman look if the Chiefs had a true #1 receiver?  Kelce, Rice, and say DHop might look pretty formidable with a threat of Toney or Hardman getting open if the others were doubled.  I hope Toney can be fixed.  If it's a matter of looking the ball into his hands, that should be correctable.  He's young and cheap and fast.  We know Hardman's peak and what he can and can't do.  Moore is a mystery to me.  Maybe just not the talent that Veach thought he could be.  Bottom line is that the Chiefs could lose MVS, Jones, CEH, Bell, and Donavan Smith and buy a real #1 WR.  Higgin is a possibility and he would be a step up from what JuJu brought last season.  Don't count on the draft.  Andy doesn't bring in rookies quickly (Rice became a necessity) and the Chiefs draft position isn't going to get them a top 5 WR.

[BroncoStud 3,253]

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think teams have seen enough film and played against Mahomes enough by now that they know how to defend his style much better than seasons past, and Kelce slowing down has really thrown him off his game.  And as much of an absolute piece of shit human being he is, Tyreek Hill is a QBs dream at WR, losing his services hurts too.

[mex 65,581]

2 hours ago, jetlord said:

How bad would Toney, Moore, and Hardman look if the Chiefs had a true #1 receiver?  Kelce, Rice, and say DHop might look pretty formidable with a threat of Toney or Hardman getting open if the others were doubled.  I hope Toney can be fixed.  If it's a matter of looking the ball into his hands, that should be correctable.  He's young and cheap and fast.  We know Hardman's peak and what he can and can't do.  Moore is a mystery to me.  Maybe just not the talent that Veach thought he could be.  Bottom line is that the Chiefs could lose MVS, Jones, CEH, Bell, and Donavan Smith and buy a real #1 WR.  Higgin is a possibility and he would be a step up from what JuJu brought last season.  Don't count on the draft.  Andy doesn't bring in rookies quickly (Rice became a necessity) and the Chiefs draft position isn't going to get them a top 5 WR.

I'm sorry but I don't want to lose CEH. He's a very serviceable back, knows the playbook, and busts his ass. No running back will command high dollars these days, so I'm guessing we could keep him w/o breaking the piggy bank. 

I love Pacheco... don't get me wrong... but his balls-to-the-wall style is such that he will likely miss some games throughout the season. Nothing wrong with that... just means we need a competent #2 back, which CEH is.

[mex 65,581]

10 minutes ago, BroncoStud said:

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think teams have seen enough film and played against Mahomes enough by now that they know how to defend his style much better than seasons past, and Kelce slowing down has really thrown him off his game.  And as much of an absolute piece of shit human being he is, Tyreek Hill is a QBs dream at WR, losing his services hurts too.

Agree with the last points, not so sure about the first. Mahomes is Mahomes, and he can beat anyone. Were it not for incompetent WRs his numbers would be stellar this season. Toney HANDED that game to Detroit, on a silver platter. Our WRs also handed Buffalo the win. With competent WRs, we're 11-3... quite possibly 12-2. 

Your team is the only team to really beat us this season, and you gotta admit denver was kinda due to have a game where everything went right. The donks hadn't beat us since the obama administration. 

I'm not quite ready to say the league has "figured out" and neutralized Mahomes quite yet.

[BroncoStud 3,253]

11 minutes ago, mex said:

Agree with the last points, not so sure about the first. Mahomes is Mahomes, and he can beat anyone. Were it not for incompetent WRs his numbers would be stellar this season. Toney HANDED that game to Detroit, on a silver platter. Our WRs also handed Buffalo the win. With competent WRs, we're 11-3... quite possibly 12-2. 

Your team is the only team to really beat us this season, and you gotta admit denver was kinda due to have a game where everything went right. The donks hadn't beat us since the obama administration. 

I'm not quite ready to say the league has "figured out" and neutralized Mahomes quite yet.

I never said the NFL had "figured out" or "neutralized Mahomes" yet Mex, I said that they have played against him enough to defend his playstyle BETTER.  Kind of like Favre was seemingly unbeatable at times early in his career, eventually defenses began to understand his tendencies, and though he was still great, and highly effective, he had to adapt.  Mahomes needs to sit in the pocket longer at times, and he definitely needs a go-to WR.  Toney should have been cut already.

[mex 65,581]

Just now, BroncoStud said:

I never said the NFL had "figured out" or "neutralized Mahomes" yet Mex, I said that they have played against him enough to defend his playstyle BETTER.  Kind of like Favre was seemingly unbeatable at times early in his career, eventually defenses began to understand his tendencies, and though he was still great, and highly effective, he had to adapt.  Mahomes needs to sit in the pocket longer at times, and he definitely needs a go-to WR.  Toney should have been cut already.

Fair enough. And I would agree. 

All we need is for our WRs to do their fucking jobs, and we're a SB contending team. Patrick has had plenty of time iin the pocket, but he's being forced to hold too long because nobody can find a seam. That's what is so frustrating. 

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

6 hours ago, mex said:

We'll see how well he sits in practice this week.  If he sits well, then we'll try him out on the bench during the game.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

2 hours ago, mex said:

Fair enough. And I would agree. 

All we need is for our WRs to do their fucking jobs,

Their girlfriends have been saying the same thing. I know that, because I saw Taylor Swift yelling that during the game. She is the Eric Bienemy replacement.

[Calichief 3,016]

They should let him change it up again and go back to freelancing. Might help guys get open. No one would expect it. 

[jetlord 10,207]

1 minute ago, Calichief said:

They should let him change it up again and go back to freelancing. Might help guys get open. No one would expect it. 

Freelancing doesn't do much if the receivers aren't in sync with Mahomes or if they quit on their routes if the pass isn't out in 3- seconds.  Ross was accused earlier this season of slowing when the ball didn't come his was and I suspect a few others are the same.  With the deep ball missing (thanks, MVS), defenses just have less space to defend this season. 

[Holmes4six! 968]

At the end of the day, we don’t have anyone on offense that makes a defense game plan for them or in other words scare them other than kelce. I bet defense coordinators have noticed rice 

maybe Mahomes under Center may help. The screen to CEH was from under Center. Play action to create more space and give us something different that defneses haven’t seen that much of from us. 
we have what we have and I think Reid needs dial up something different that we can use in these next few games which will give defense coordinators something to think about when we hit the playoffs. 
Is forston done for the year? 
Hope they go and sign ertz. 
 

[jetlord 10,207]

8 hours ago, mex said:

I'm sorry but I don't want to lose CEH. He's a very serviceable back, knows the playbook, and busts his ass. No running back will command high dollars these days, so I'm guessing we could keep him w/o breaking the piggy bank. 

I love Pacheco... don't get me wrong... but his balls-to-the-wall style is such that he will likely miss some games throughout the season. Nothing wrong with that... just means we need a competent #2 back, which CEH is.

CEH might not cost much, but he is replaceable.  A third day rookie with some speed and decent hands would be nice.  Pacheco needs backup and Mac is about done, but they aren't Priest or JC so I'd go with a rookie.  

[Calichief 3,016]

17 minutes ago, jetlord said:

CEH might not cost much, but he is replaceable.  A third day rookie with some speed and decent hands would be nice.  Pacheco needs backup and Mac is about done, but they aren't Priest or JC so I'd go with a rookie.  

Prince should be up to speed next year 

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

Coming out of college CEH was known for his receiving prowess. He leaves a lot to be desired as a RB, but he is truly good at catching the ball. We need that guy, but the bigger question is why we have never used his greatest asset, something we Saw on Sunday against NE. That has to be a coaching error. When he is in there on RPOs, defenses will be much less likely to guess right. He should be thrown to much more often. Why hasn't  he?

[mex 65,581]

9 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

Coming out of college CEH was known for his receiving prowess. He leaves a lot to be desired as a RB, but he is truly good at catching the ball. We need that guy, but the bigger question is why we have never used his greatest asset, something we Saw on Sunday against NE. That has to be a coaching error. When he is in there on RPOs, defenses will be much less likely to guess right. He should be thrown to much more often. Why hasn't  he?

Totally agree. Except, I don't think he's a bad RB. There might be others better than him... but he can block, catch, and knows the playbook. I also wonder why we don't see more of him on wheel routes etc. It's almost like Andy is losing his playcalling mojo in certain situations.

[oldtimer 8,684]

39 minutes ago, mex said:

Totally agree. Except, I don't think he's a bad RB. There might be others better than him... but he can block, catch, and knows the playbook. I also wonder why we don't see more of him on wheel routes etc. It's almost like Andy is losing his playcalling mojo in certain situations.

maybe he thinks McKinnon is just better?. This'll be McKinnon's last year so keeping CEH is not a stretch and drafting another  recieving  RB in the late rnds and or  some one who got cut is a given IMO