kcchief4lif 910 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I started with a hypothesis. Now, I'm not so sure. The preface here should be familiar to most of you. The Kansas City Chiefs face a number of significant financial decisions for next year's roster. Do they keep Dwayne Bowe? What about Tamba Hali? What do you do about beloved veterans coming off major injuries like Derrick Johnson and Mike DeVito? Eric Berry's tragic scenario does carry financial ramifications. Do we even touch that one? John Dorsey and his staff have certainly been preparing for some time for the major crossroads they find themselves at this offseason And none of this touches the biggest issue of all: finding a way to keep Justin Houston in house for a long time. Given the need to create cap space to make that extension happen (or a number of other moves to plug roster holes), it's natural to look at a budget for line items that are easily trimmed. Exhibit A: Rodney Hudson Rodney Hudson is the team's starting center. He has been since the Chiefs starting center since Casey Wiegmann and the team parted ways after the 2011 season. Hudson suffered a serious injury in 2012 that limited him to three starts, but he's returned to start 31 of 32 games over the last two years. Hudson is also an unrestricted free agent, one of 14 for the Chiefs. In a year where Kansas City faces a number of major decisions, Hudson's is another case that needs to be decided upon. And given his position, I thought it was an easy call. Why let Hudson walk?Centers are cheap. They are the least heralded offensive player outside of a fullback, and that's because most teams don't employ a fullback as often as the Chiefs. Many teams, I believed, can use a mid-round pick and find their starting center with no problem. Given the aforementioned money woes, it made sense to believe that Hudson's potential exit could be a good move. The highest paid center in the game is Alex Mack of the Cleveland Browns with a salary cap hit of $10 million. Mack not only sets the high bar, but it's not even close after him.Ryan Kalil of the Panthers makes $7.3 million, and Jets center Nick Mangold makes $7.2 million. While a few more guys make a few million apiece, it's also easy to find a dozen teams that suit up each week with a starter in the middle making less than $2 million. If Hudson is on the verge of being paid, which he most definitely is (and which we'll get to in a minute), why not let Hudson walk and make his millions elsewhere? The team has a developmental prospect in Eric Kush. They also have a slew of draft picks in the upcoming draft. Paying Hudson much more than the league average to remain in place seemed more of a luxury in a time when needs should only be considered. What's the problem then?Rodney Hudson is the problem. So is the rest of the offensive line. First of all, Hudson was good last year. Let's change that. Rodney Hudson was very, very good last year. Hudson was never short on promise after being selected by Scott Pioli in the second round of the 2011 NFL Draft. Hudson was a two-time All-American at Florida State, so it was pretty clear he could be a special player at the next level. Unfortunately, Hudson was just slow to realize it on the field, again through no fault of his own. Injuries and sitting behind a solid veteran for a season like Wiegmann kept Hudson from showing fans and coaches what he could do. This season, however, he's put it all together. A closer look at this year's center rankings from Pro Football Focus show just how dominant Hudson has been. Nick Mangold grades out as the top center in the NFL followed by Travis Frederick of the Dallas Cowboys. Hudson comes in third. PFF splits grades between four primary categories for centers: HUDSON WAS THE ONLY CENTER IN THE NFL TO GRADE OUT POSITIVELY IN EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY. Pass block Screen block Run block Penalties Hudson was the only center in the NFL to grade out positively in every single category. While Mangold and Frederick had higher grades overall, it was their strong performance in specific categories that elevated them above the most consistent performer in the middle in football. If you watched the Chiefs offense at all this year, this only confirms what you saw with your eyes. Hudson was always consistent up front. He held his own at the point of attack against some of the NFL's best teams. He's excellent at getting in space to help the Andy Reid's signature screens. And he can also help Jamaal Charles and Knile Davis mow straight ahead. Some of his highest overall grades came against the stout defensive fronts of the Seattle Seahawks, St. Louis Rams, Miami Dolphins and Pittsburgh Steelers. They say a rising tide lifts all boats, a maxim proven true by the Dallas Cowboys offensive line this season. The addition of first round rookie Zack Martin to a line that already hadTyron Smith and Frederick makes even the guards look amazing. Next thing you know, Tony Romo is an MVP and DeMarco Murray is a household name breaking Emmitt Smith's records. Yep, Emmitt Smith. That's what an offensive line can do. So it's even more amazing, then, how Hudson's performance stands out. In an opposite scenario than the Cowboys, the Chiefs low tide of an offensive front should have subtracted from Hudson's performance. Perhaps it did. It's hard not to believe that Hudson could have graded much higher overall if he'd been surrounded by even a league-average performer. Here are the overall grades from Pro Football Focus for the other Chiefs linemen on the season: Eric Fisher, 1030 snaps, -17.5 ranking Zach Fulton, 1021 snaps, -14.1 ranking Ryan Harris, 980 snaps, -3.1 ranking Mike McGlynn, 825 snaps, -32.5 ranking (Yep.) Jeff Linkenbach, 251 snaps, -5.1 ranking McGlynn was by far the worst offender, but every single one of the grades above shows a subpar lineman. Some of them are young and still developing. Some (like Fisher) were getting better at season's end. But not one of them remotely helped the perception of Rodney Hudson as an impact player. Rodney Hudson did that all by himself. So what should the Chiefs do?I started with one idea in mind and convinced myself of the complete opposite by the time I was done researching this story. Given the exits suffered in free agency last year ofJon Asamoah, Geoff Schwartz and Branden Albert, it seems ridiculous that Hudson could also leave the Chiefs just 12 months later. Even more the replacement strategy for Schwartz and Asamoah clearly did not work out. The loss of Jeff Allen hurt for sure, but the Chiefs were content this offseason to sign a couple guys on the cheap, draft a couple more and see what pans out. The pasta-at-the-wall approach made the front line a disaster and the Chiefs offense suffered all season for the lack of a cohesive, proven front. How can Dorsey and company possibly employ the same idea this offseason and let Hudson walk only to replace him with someone much cheaper? Hudson is only 25-years-old and some team is going to enjoy a dominant performer in the middle of the offense for the next five years or more. Should it not be the Chiefs? What would Hudson command on the open market? Mangold's deal could set a ceiling, but his 7-year, $54 million contract was signed back in 2010. Ryan Kalil's deal with the Panthers went for 6/$49 million back in 2011 and they've been restructuring ever since. No, the best example is likely Mack, the outlier. The Browns had cap space to spare last year and matched the offer sheet Mack signed with the Jaguars for 5-years, $42 million. HOW CAN DORSEY AND COMPANY POSSIBLY EMPLOY THE SAME IDEA THIS OFFSEASON AND LET HUDSON WALK ONLY TO REPLACE HIM WITH SOMEONE MUCH CHEAPER? That's not good for the Chiefs. That means that another team flush with cash can make a move like the Jags made last year for Mack. In fact, the Jaguars are the most likely team to make a grab for Hudson given that they gave up a league-leading 71 sacks this season and must make the investment to protect Blake Bortles in year two or he becomes the next David Carr. The Jags have more cap room than any other team and the need for great players up front. Other teams with cap space aren't likely to set the high mark for Hudson. The Browns already have Mack in house. The Titans have spent way too much along the offensive line already. The Eagles have Jason Kelce, and the Jets have Mangold, perhaps the best center in football. In the end, then, it's going to come down to whether or not Hudson wants to remain with the team that drafted him for some small discount or head south to Jacksonville for the big bucks. Even if the Chiefs could get him for a bit cheaper, they're still going to have to come close to $8 million or more per year for Hudson and even that might be shortchanging him. If not, however, the Chiefs could see their best lineman leave for Florida for the second straight offseason. http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2014/12/30/7464857/kansas-city-chiefs-decisions-free-agent-rodney-hudson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefensiveMan 758 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Unfortunately, that's the NFL and I think Hudson is gone. Kush, really showed promise in last year's week 17 SD game. We'll soon find out if Andy Reid is the gooroo offensive line coach he once was. I attribute Hudson's success to good coaching the last couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West 6,713 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 IMO Hudson is worth the $. He is ascending and represents the future. Dorsey needs to be creative and get this deal done. w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcchief4lif 910 Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 I would say out of all the players he would be the one most likely to get the Franchise tag. They have to get a deal done with Houston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCSLC2008 606 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I would say out of all the players he would be the one most likely to get the Franchise tag. They have to get a deal done with Houston. I heard that number would be 12 million. I hope they reach an agreement for less than that. This is where years and guaranteed come into play. We could get him for less if the offer is better long-term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I would say out of all the players he would be the one most likely to get the Franchise tag. They have to get a deal done with Houston. Centers aren't worth $10 million a year. He will not be tagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcchief4lif 910 Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Centers aren't worth $10 million a year. He will not be tagged. Ahh Didn't see the number on the centers, just that it was the least expensive right in line with the full back. Guess I forget how costly these guys are getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WichitaZRide 321 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 What kind of money do you think Hudson's agent would be asking for? I would think that's really where it begins. As the article pointed out, centers don't make much in general. We could pay him 4.5 million a year and he would still be a top-10 paid center. I would be perfectly fine paying him to be our long term solution. I know they are young, but lets put some perspective on how little money we have invested in our O-Line. As it stands now, this is how much we are paying what would be our starting oline in 2015: LT: Fisher - 6 million LG: Allen - 1.5 million C: Kush - 625k (This figures that Hudson is a FA) RG: Fulton - 544k LT: Stephenson - 844k (This factors that Ryan Harris is a FA) Yeah....This puts our starting line's salary at 9.5 million next year. There are 13 INDIVIDUAL O-Lineman getting paid more next season than our entire line combined. The O-Line is our biggest problem outside WR, and is probably part of the reason we have a WR problem in the first place. The Dorsey way in Green Bay is to draft and keep the good ones. Since Hudson's the only good one we even have right now on the line, he needs to be kept as long as his price is within reason. Otherwise we are just wasting our time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHard 2,061 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 In our ca situation, I would not throw money at an average, IMO, center. In fact, there is not a single member of this Oline I would throw money at. They are terrible across the board and need replacement if contract is up. Otherwise, work them in as depth. Fisher, because of investment, be the only exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kccrow 529 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 It's a no-brainer type of decision to me. Hudson is a top-10 center in this league if you ask me. Yeah, everything around him was shit, but Hudson was nowhere near shit. Hudson was good to outstanding in every facet of the game. To not re-sign him would be stupidity in my opinion. Put some even decent guards around him and he'll stand out as the all-pro type of player he played like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West 6,713 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I am not sure if he is top 10 right now, but he is improving and he is the glue to the line. Add in the fact that he is young and he stays on the field. This team needs to ELIMINATE question marks as it is poised for the playoffs for the next several seasons so its time to lock down the KNOWNS and get focused. We need to get a guard or two and a RT, We need quality WR's..... w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Center is one of the hardest positions to evaluate, and especially so when they're surrounded by mediocrity. With that said, I like PFFft for reference, but I don't have confidence in their assessments to the extent that I would accept their evaluation of Rodney Hudson. The question becomes, How important is a top-ten center (if Hudson really is a top-ten center) to a championship run?: Alex Mack, Ryan Kalil, and Nick Mangold play for three teams whose combined record over the last four years is 78-113-1. Ryan Kalil was the only player to register a post-season appearance, a loss in which the offense scored 10 points (albeit against the 49ers), and if you count that playoff result, the Panthers, like the Jets and the Browns aren't a winning team. I'm sure that the teams that won Super Bowls during that time-frame (Giants, Ravens, Seahawks, and whoever wins this year) had a functional player at the position, but I couldn't name these teams' centers like I could those for the Browns or the Jets (I would not have remembered the center from Carolina). One of the basic principles for success in the NFL's salary cap era is this: Re-sign identified ascending talent early. This has not happened in regard to Rodney Hudson. Hudson is bound for free agency, and instead of negotiating with one party, he gets to negotiate with his choices among thirty-two. Once you start talking about highly-esteemed players, there is almost no expectation of getting a player at a good value. I also disagree with the idea that this year's troubles on offensive line warrant a philosophical approach that puts continuity above actual merit. Hudson is good, but will be overpaid. I have long stated that the Chiefs would ultimately have to pick between Hudson and Houston if they wanted to retain a semblance of fiscal responsibility, and while it will be impossible to get Houston at a good value (arguably, he'll be a worse value than Hudson), Hudson is replaceable, whereas Houston simply is not. I'd rather pay a premium for an elite pass rusher at outside linebacker than a premium for a center, even a league-best center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 On a team whose biggest weakness is O-line, and which needs more O-linemen, a position that requires precise coordination and communication with the QB and the other linemen to be effective, the Chiefs simply cannot afford to have to look for a new center for next year. Hudson has proven he is quality, and you do not upgrade the O-line by letting quality go. IMO, it would be insane to let him walk. Start with Hudson and Fisher, then fix the remaining weaknesses, and the current team is a 12 win team, maybe even 13 or 14 wins if DeVito and Johnson come back on defense at their prior effectiveness. To let a quality center walk when the team is on the verge of blossoming is insane. They need to resign him and get a contract with Houston and then just draft well. No heroics or lottery wins needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefensiveMan 758 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 On a team whose biggest weakness is O-line, and which needs more O-linemen, a position that requires precise coordination and communication with the QB and the other linemen to be effective, the Chiefs simply cannot afford to have to look for a new center for next year. Hudson has proven he is quality, and you do not upgrade the O-line by letting quality go. IMO, it would be insane to let him walk. Start with Hudson and Fisher, then fix the remaining weaknesses, and the current team is a 12 win team, maybe even 13 or 14 wins if DeVito and Johnson come back on defense at their prior effectiveness. To let a quality center walk when the team is on the verge of blossoming is insane. They need to resign him and get a contract with Houston and then just draft well. No heroics or lottery wins needed. So you're saying in essence we cannot afford Suh in FA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Does anyone here care to explain why Hudson is indispensable beyond the argument that continuity for continuity's sake trumps everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Does anyone here care to explain why Hudson is indispensable beyond the argument that continuity for continuity's sake trumps everything?No such thing as indispensible. But if o-line is our biggest weakness, which most think it is, and Hudson is one of the only two good ones, and it is a position of communication being critical, and it takes time for a line to gel, then why waste another season trying to get a nearly totally new line to gel? It would strain my patience to the breaking point. I thought my reasoning was clear in my prior post. Doesn't mean its right. But my opinion was expressed clearly. Picking up someone even better in FA was not part of my post. I doubt we would have the cash if we are going to sign Houston. And it still would not help the gelling problem. Why waste a half season. We can't afford that on a rising team. That's my thinking for whatever its worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Does anyone here care to explain why Hudson is indispensable beyond the argument that continuity for continuity's sake trumps everything? No such thing as indispensible. But if o-line is our biggest weakness, which most think it is, and Hudson is one of the only two good ones, and it is a position of communication being critical, and it takes time for a line to gel, then why waste another season trying to get a nearly totally new line to gel? It would strain my patience to the breaking point. I thought my reasoning was clear in my prior post. Doesn't mean its right. But my opinion was expressed clearly. Picking up someone even better in FA was not part of my post. I doubt we would have the cash if we are going to sign Houston. And it still would not help the gelling problem. Why waste a half season. We can't afford that on a rising team. That's my thinking for whatever its worth. I agree that the offensive line is the Chiefs' biggest weakness. With that said, last year we were talking about three average linemen leaving that had accounted for two spots on the offensive line, and the concern then was continuity. I would have to argue that between continuity and talent, the problem with the Chiefs' 2014 line was that they were starting backup talent at multiple spots from week one onward. Jeff Allen and Eric Fisher started almost every week in 2013; they're still on the roster. Zach Fulton also will be staying. In a sense, if Hudson walks, the Chiefs retain as much continuity heading into 2015 as they did into the beginning of this year. One could rightly assume that if the talent of the replacement center and right tackle are superior to what they are replacing, the Chiefs should be in a better situation regarding their offensive line. Better receiving options on top of this wouldn't hurt. In a perfect world, the Chiefs keep Hudson. The reality though is that the Chiefs are not yet home free from their salary cap nightmare. If the Chiefs have to give up more than slightly-less-than market value for Hudson, they have to let him walk. You'll be hard-pressed to find a bigger advocate for quality offensive line play than myself. Both of us have been the fans of teams that have had dominating offensive lines. The argument against retaining Hudson, not necessarily my argument, is that the Chiefs may overpay him because they are afraid that they won't be able to find a comparable talent on their roster, in free agency, or in the draft. Centers are important, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that Hudson's talent would be difficult to replace. Finally, "continuity" is somewhat elusive from week-to-week. The presumed starters in week one of this season were to be Fisher, Allen, Hudson, Fulton, Stephenson. The Chiefs were down two by the end of the first game. That was far more damaging than the release of Albert, Asamoah, and Schwartz. That was where "continuity" really took a hit. You could keep Hudson, but if Fulton and Fisher were to miss significant time due to serious injury, the result would be the same as we saw early in this year if their replacement players are talents like Ryan Harris and Mike McGlynn. So first the Chiefs need to sign and retain quality talent, and then that talent needs to stay healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 First the Chiefs need to sign and retain quality talent, and then that talent needs to stay healthy. Well put. By the way, if the Chiefs were to develop the offensive line to the extent that they get to the end of the year with five quality starters, now you start trying to lock up those guys long-term for the sake of continuity. It becomes a little easier on the pocketbook in that situation because a player whose new contract is being negotiated doesn't enter those negotiations with a clear-cut argument as to why is the best, most indispensable player in the unit, and it becomes a matter of whether he wants to chase money elsewhere, or whether he wants to continue playing on a line that is going to keep him in a good position to score an eventual Hall of Fame nomination. The Chiefs are so far from that. Even an elite offensive lineman can only cover one of two gaps. Therefore, the Chiefs may be able to find better value between free agency and the draft in order to cover Hudson's gaps, LinkenGlynn's gaps, and Stepharris' gaps at the same cost as Hudson would be paid to continue covering the same two gaps. This is of course a gross oversimplification, as there is a difference between being assigned to cover a gap and actually doing so. Nevertheless, when you can obtain quality guards to help out the center, $3.5 million per gap per year begins to count a lot of money toward the salary cap. And, of course, if the Chiefs can't use the salary cap space they do have to attract quality replacements while retaining their own quality talent, then you might as well pony up the money in a front-loaded contract for a center that would be admittedly overpaid but be very much needed in that instance. I'm just hoping that the Chiefs have the problem of a tight cap, as it would mean that they were actually able to retain their own talent while attracting new talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kccrow 529 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Anyone that thinks Hudson is easily replaceable and wasn't very good this year simply didn't watch the man play. Hudson played at an extremely high level. Unfortunately, he played next to two of the worst guards in football, who coincidentally played next to two of the worst tackles in football. Rodney Hudson is the only person on the offensive line that should be retained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Anyone that thinks Hudson is easily replaceable and wasn't very good this year simply didn't watch the man play. Hudson played at an extremely high level. Unfortunately, he played next to two of the worst guards in football, who coincidentally played next to two of the worst tackles in football. Rodney Hudson is the only person on the offensive line that should be retained. I almost entirely agree with you, except for Fisher. He made huge strides this year in only his second year. O-linemen do not really start to hit their stride until year three. It would be extremely hasty, possibly even disastrous to get rid of Fisher. They won't. And I would venture to say that five years from now you will consider the idea of the Chiefs without Fisher as almost unthinkable. He has almost unimaginable physical tools, and mentally he is progressing at least as fast as expected. This is what bad franchises do. They give up on good players too soon. Let's not be that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calichief 3,016 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I almost entirely agree with you, except for Fisher. He made huge strides this year in only his second year. O-linemen do not really start to hit their stride until year three. It would be extremely hasty, possibly even disastrous to get rid of Fisher. They won't. And I would venture to say that five years from now you will consider the idea of the Chiefs without Fisher as almost unthinkable. He has almost unimaginable physical tools, and mentally he is progressing at least as fast as expected. This is what bad franchises do. They give up on good players too soon. Let's not be that. Bil, he's a number 1 overall! This is not progressing as expected. Dude gets steam rolled. I do agree that we can't quit him yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Bil, he's a number 1 overall! This is not progressing as expected. Dude gets steam rolled. I do agree that we can't quit him yet. The entire second half of the season he performed as well as any LT out there. It is hard to see when his LG next to him is a chump. He is progressing at a rate worthy of an overall number one. The stats don't lie. The coaches all describe him as a quick learner. So I still believe he will justify his draft spot. Talk to me in another year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Anyone that thinks Hudson is easily replaceable and wasn't very good this year simply didn't watch the man play. Hudson played at an extremely high level. Without comparing him to any other Chiefs' offensive lineman, what makes Hudson so difficult to replace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kychief Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 It's a no-brainer type of decision to me. Hudson is a top-10 center in this league if you ask me. Yeah, everything around him was shit, but Hudson was nowhere near shit. Hudson was good to outstanding in every facet of the game. To not re-sign him would be stupidity in my opinion. Put some even decent guards around him and he'll stand out as the all-pro type of player he played like. It's a no-brainer type of decision to me. Hudson is a top-10 center in this league if you ask me. Yeah, everything around him was shit, but Hudson was nowhere near shit. Hudson was good to outstanding in every facet of the game. To not re-sign him would be stupidity in my opinion. Put some even decent guards around him and he'll stand out as the all-pro type of player he played like. Anyone that thinks Hudson is easily replaceable and wasn't very good this year simply didn't watch the man play. Hudson played at an extremely high level. Unfortunately, he played next to two of the worst guards in football, who coincidentally played next to two of the worst tackles in football. Rodney Hudson is the only person on the offensive line that should be retained. correct... we all know eric fisher is going nowhere..and maybe fulton turns out to be ok... but lookat those grades...especially the left side...the qbs blind side at that...its no wonder we watched a checkdown offense...any qb that plays behind that mess should be considered for the purple heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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