Chiefs GM-off!: 3 years of John Dorsey vs. 4 years of Scott Pioli

[kcchief4lif 910]

The common theme amongst the Chiefs faithful is that former Chiefs GM Scott Pioli was a disastrous accumulator of talent, while John Dorsey's got the golden touch. My view on this is more nuanced: (a.) Pioli was more successful at landing All World talents, but frequently busted on just about everything else (thus explaining why a 2-14 team in 2012 had six Pro Bowlers), and (b.) Dorsey has yet to reliably find difference-making stars, but routinely finds great supporting talent and can fill out a deep 53-man roster as well as anybody.

To more or less prove this, I thought it'd be interesting to do a side-by-side comparison of the acquisitions these two GMs made while in charge of Chiefs personnel. Trades, free agent acquisitions, and draft picks will all be considered.

As interesting as this is, it's important to remember this is an imperfect way of measuring their success as GMs for the following reasons:

1. Pioli's had 4 years, Dorsey's only really had 2 at this point. True, but I'm not patient, so we'll have to live with that. We can do this next year, too, if the timing is really that big of a hangup.

2. Personnel decisions by every GM are influenced by what the previous GM did.Very true. Pioli had Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr, so he never had to make huge investments at CB. He always had Brandon Albert, so he never had to invest in a franchise LT. Dorsey has always had Poe and Houston/Hali, so his contributions to those positions are limited, too.

3. None of Dorsey's draft picks have had a full three years to pan out. Very true, but look at my response to #1.

So with those limitations in mind, let's compare the GM acquisitions at every position!

QUARTERBACK

Pioli: Matt Cassel, Brady Quinn, Kyle Orton, Tyler Palko, Ricky Stanzi

Dorsey: Alex Smith, Chase Daniel, Aaron Murray, Tyler Bray

Regardless of your opinion of Alex Smith, there's no question that he is a superior QB to poor Mattie Cassel. I think the overwhelming majority of fans would say the same about comparing Smith to Orton, but perhaps there's some discussion to be had. Nonetheless, context matters: Orton was a panic solution to stem the bleeding from the looming, inevitable firing of then-head-coach Todd Haley, while Alex Smith was adorned from the start as The Man for the Reid regime.

If Cassel and Orton are underwhelming options to run your franchise, then the remaining talent -- Quinn, Palko, and Stanzi -- were all unequivocal dumpster fires who brought nothing of value for Pioli's struggling rosters. Chase Daniel has proved himself at this point as a fair suture in case Smith goes down for a couple games, but that's it. Bray is on the verge of getting cut this offseason. Murray is very possibly a really good backup, but who knows at this point.

Verdict: Dorsey, by a mile.

RUNNING BACK

Pioli: Dexter McCluster, Thomas Jones, Peyton Hillis, Cyrus Gray, Javarris Williams

Dorsey: De'Anthony Thomas, Knile Davis, Joe McKnight

Both Pioli and Dorsey can thank Herm Edwards for drafting the engine of their offenses. With an All Pro RB already on the roster that everybody loves playing with, Pioli and Dorsey only had to try to find quality backups to spell the great Jamaal Charles.

McCluster and Thomas are both RB/WRs, so I'm throwing them both in here, and at this point Thomas is showcasing a little more dynamism and playmaking ability than McCluster did, but not by much. Pioli landed a solid, unspectacular Thomas Jones who combo'd with Charles for 2,000 rushing yards in 2010 and everybody's favorite third-stringer in the hardworking Cyrus Gray. Hillis and Williams were busts. Dorsey by contrast has landed a solid, unspectacular Knile Davis who is, like Jones briefly was, a really good complimentary back to Charles. McKnight would have been a home run had he stayed healthy, but that's what you get when you gamble on the Moeaki's of the NFL.

Verdict: Dorsey by a hair

FULLBACK:

Pioli: Le'Ron McClain, Mike Cox, Shane Bannon

Dorsey: Anthony Sherman, Braden Wilson

Not that fullback is a terribly important position, but under Scott Pioli, the position was filled for several years by the under-appreciated, hilariously-named Mike Cox, who was actually a decent blocker and really good receiver. After completely whiffing on Bannon, Pioli did do the right thing by landing Le'Ron McClain in 2011, who did his job admirably among the squalid conclusion of the Todd Haley era.

I absolutely despised John Dorsey's trade of Javier Arenas for Anthony Sherman at the time, but who could argue ANYTHING other than it was a complete, total win for the Chiefs? Arenas seemed to have the makings of a starting CB, but bottomed out after being traded to Arizona. Sherman, meanwhile, has gone on to become a Top Three fullback in the NFL, if not the outright best. Braden was cut months after being drafted.

Verdict: Dorsey by a fair bit

WIDE RECEIVER:

Pioli: Jonathan Baldwin, Steve Breaston, Junior Hemingway, Chris Chambers, Terrance Copper, Devon Wylie

Dorsey: Jeremy Maclin, Donnie Avery, Chris Conley, Albert Wilson, Jason Avant, A.J. Jenkins

There are two areas in which John Dorsey utterly dominates Scott Pioli so badly it's almost violent, and this is one of them. GM of the Decade or not, Pioli couldn't find receiver talent to save his life. He burned a 1st rounder on colossal bust Jon Baldwin, who started his career on PUP for breaking his hand punching a teammate in the face. Breaston was a merely-decent contributor paid like a true #2 for two years before getting drummed out by Dorsey. Chambers was a lukewarm flash in the pan, and Wylie barely saw the field. The only thing Pioli could reliably do is find great special teamers at WR, as Hemingway and Copper have both been roster standouts there.

Dorsey's had to completely start over from scratch, and has done a slow, steady job of doing so (some would say too slow). Maclin is the best marquee free agent landing this team has scored since... I honestly don't know. Avery (#2 receiver), Avant (veteran stopgap), and Wilson (developing UDFA speedster) have done decently in their limited roles, but Avant and Wilson still need time to win us over; I'm high on Wilson, but bearish on the aging Avant. Conley is the selection that could truly elevate the entire WR corps from "adequate" to "excellent" if he pans out.

Verdict: Dorsey by a mile

TIGHT END:

Pioli: Tony Moeaki, Kevin Boss, Jake O'Connell

Dorsey: Travis Kelce, Anthony Fasano, Sean McGrath, Demetrius Harris, James O'Shaughnessy, Phillip Supernaw

Pioli trading up to draft Moeaki was a fair attempt to replace Gonzalez. Moeaki immediately blossomed into a complete threat at tight end with Pro Bowl potential -- a great blocker, a really good receiver. The problem, as evidenced by his name being turned into a verb, is that he was more brittle than actual canned peanut brittle. Injured out of competition for the next two years and part of 2013, Moeaki was a test case in "how patient is your franchise." Boss was a solid get for the Chiefs, but O'Connell never amounted to anything.

Dorsey has done a good job of stocking TE over the years. Kelce, of course, is a Top Five tight end already after his de facto rookie season, and will only get better. Fasano and McGrath were unathletic with good hands, which Dorsey has now replaced with athletic mystery projects in Harris and O'Shaughnessy.

Verdict: Dorsey, decisively

OFFENSIVE TACKLE:

Pioli: Donald Stephenson, Eric Winston, Jared Gaither, Ryan O'Callaghan, Ikechuku Ndukwe

Dorsey: Eric Fisher, Ryan Harris

Unlike Dorsey, Pioli got the luxury of inheriting Brandon Albert for the entirety of his rookie contract from Herm Edwards, so he worked to provide talent at RT and find depth. His job at doing so was largely a failure -- other than a strong campaign at the end of 2013, Stephenson simply hasn't seen the field. Winston was a high-priced bust, and Gaither, O'Callaghan and Ikechuku were various forms of terrible.

Dorsey paid the highest price possible for a franchise LT, and his grade there is a resounding incomplete. Fisher has all the tools, but remains a mystery. Harris is the only other tackle Dorsey's brought on, and played surprisingly decently at RT in 2014 considering how little he cost to sign. At this point, I think we'd all take Fisher/Harris as our bookend tackles over any two of the tackles Pioli brought on.

Verdict: Dorsey by a good bit

GUARD:

Pioli: Jeff Allen, Jon Asamoah, Ryan Lilja, Mike Goff, Andy Alleman, Colin Brown

Dorsey: Ben Grubbs, Geoff Schwartz, Zach Fulton, Alan Fanaika, Mike McGlynn, Jeff Linkenbach, Laurent Duvarney-Tardif

This is a pretty tough fight to consider, as both GMs have brought on an interesting combination of good talent and utter disasters. Pioli landed three serviceable, starting-caliber guards in Allen, Asamoah, and Lilja. Goff and Alleman actually saw time on the field, and were complete and utter disasters. Colin Brown never contributed in Kansas City, though he did serve a solid two-year stint as Buffalo's starting center.

Dorsey's track record is damn near identical, making this a complete tie so far between the two GMs. Grubbs and Schwartz were/are legit gets for this Chiefs squad. Fulton and Fanaika are still question marks. In their time on the gridiron, they both have serviceable games, and both have terrible games. McGlynn and Linkenbach were also disasters, with Duvarney-Tardif yet to see the field.

Verdict: tie.

CENTER:

Pioli: Rodney Hudson, Casey Weigmann

Dorsey: Mitch Morse, Eric Kush

This is one of Pioli's few unqualified bitch-slaps on Dorsey -- so far. Hudson and Weigmann were both excellent starting centers for the Chiefs. Weigmann was brought back for essentially a farewell campaign and played very well, and Hudson turned into a Top Three center (albeit under the superior Andy Reid's tutelage). Hudson's actually been so dominant that Dorsey hasn't had to replace him until this offseason, making a gigantic reach in the 2nd round with Morse.

I understand that AP is starting to get on the Morse train, and good onya. But until he shows something on the field, he objectively deserves to be rated as the overdrafted lineman he is. Kush, meanwhile, has inspired little confidence.

Verdict: Pioli by a mile

NOSE TACKLE:

Pioli: Dontari Poe, Kelly Gregg, Jerrell Powe

Dorsey: Rakeem Nunez-Roches, Kyle Love

One of the limits of this exercise is that we get situations like this -- Pioli so decisively hit a homerun on this pick that Dorsey's simply never had to draft a starter quality player. Perhaps that's unfair to Dorsey, but Dontari Poe was such an unqualified success that Pioli deserves all the credit one can muster. In addition to that, Pioli landed a quality veteran stopgap in Kelly Gregg in 2010, and Powe was always dramatically underrated in KC.

However, while Dorsey never needed a starter at NT, he has consistently failed to bring on quality backup talent. Love never registered, and Nunez-Roches is a "who's that?" 6th round selection. Perhaps RNR will catch on, we'll see.

Verdict: Pioli by a mile

DEFENSIVE END:

Pioli: Allen Bailey, Tyson Jackson, Shaun Smith, Ropati Pitoitua, Alex Magee, Jerome Long

Dorsey: Mike DeVito, Vance Walker, Kevin Vickerson, Mike Catapano, Jaye Howard

Over four years, Pioli earned his reputation as a junkie for the front seven by spending a 1st and two thirds on the DE position. Tyson Jackson never lived up to his draft slot, but was an elite 2-down run defender. Allen Bailey, however, has been an epic success, struggling some against the run but destroying against the pass in a way no 3-4 DE ever has in Kansas City. Shaun Smith was a fantastic one-year signing in 2010, and Pitoitua was decent in the 2012 dumpster fire season. Magee and Long never saw the field.

Dorsey's landed a bunch of quality contributors at the DE position, but none that rise to that impact talent level of Bailey or the power of Shaun Smith. Mike DeVito is essentially a wash with Tyson Jackson as a one-dimensional run clogger, and Jaye Howard is starting to show genuine promise as a well-rounded threat. Walker, Vickerson, and Catapano all played well but rarely saw the field.

Verdict: Pioli by a hair

OUTSIDE LINEBACKER:

Pioli: Justin Houston, Mike Vrabel, Andy Studebaker, Edgar Jones, Cameron Sheffield, Gabe Miller

Dorsey: Dee Ford, Josh Martin, Frank Zombo

All of the talent on this board is various forms of disappointing, from the elderly (Vrabel) to the non-registering (Sheffield, Martin, Ford) to the Great White Flops (Studebaker, Miller, Zombo). There's hope, at least, for Dorsey's Dee Ford, who actually looked somewhat impressive rushing the passer last year, but he's still such a huge question mark the Chiefs couldn't afford to let a declining Tamba Hali walk in free agency.

The only remotely successful name on this list also happens to be the NFL's best rushbacker, in Justin Houston. End of conversation, I'd think.

Verdict: Pioli, decisively

INSIDE LINEBACKER:

Pioli: Jovan Belcher, Brandon Siler

Dorsey: Akeem Jordan, Josh Mauga, James-Michael Johnson, Ramik Wilson, DJ Alexander, Joe Mays

Both GMs have basked in the warm glow of Pro Bowler Derrick Johnson, so neither has had to find a franchise ILB. Both, however, have scrambled to compliment him in the middle of the defense, and have had some success doing so. Siler never really registered during the Pioli age, though Belcher was a very solid contributor as a two-down thumper until... he actually thumped.

Akeem Jordan was an excellent SILB for the Chiefs alongside DJ in 2013, but wasn't retained. Mauga and Johnson flailed for much of 2014 in DJ's injured stead, and Joe Mays was an unqualified disaster, never registering even on a team starving for 2014's. Dorsey responded by investing draft picks in Wilson and Alexander, neither having terribly impressive tape, so we'll have to see.

Verdict: tie

CORNERBACK:

Pioli: Javier Arenas, Stanford Routt, Travis Daniels, Donald Washington, Jamil Brown

Dorsey: Sean Smith, Marcus Peters, Phillip Gaines, Chris Owens, Marcus Cooper, Steven Nelson, Dunta Robinson

This is the other of two areas in which Pioli embarrasses himself while Dorsey thoroughly succeeds. A blind monkey might as well have been scouting defensive backs the way Pioli raked through the worst of the free agency trash heap. Not only did he waste midrounders on Washington and Brown who never contributed in any meaningful way, he burned a ***2nd*** rounder on Javier Arenas and a fat contract on Stanford Routt. WHAT?? By far the only acquisition at CB that even somewhat panned out what Travis Daniels who played some decent nickel for a season. Keep in mind: Pioli is STILL a GM in the NFL.

Dorsey, by contrast, has landed a serious of really smart acquisitions. The 2013 acquisition of Sean Smith was arguably the best get that offseason. Peters, Gaines, and Nelson were all draft picks that made tons of sense for the Chiefs system, and Gaines is a potential long-term starter. Cooper was a gem of a find in 2013 before he fell off completely last year. Chris Owens was a decent stopgap at NCB. Only Dunta Robinson was a tremendous disappointment, but holy hell, I've still got T.Y. Hilton torching him all day in that playoff game etched in my retinas.

Verdict: Dorsey by a mile

SAFETY:

Pioli: Eric Berry, Kendrick Lewis, Mike Brown, Sabby Piscatelli, DeQuan Menzie

Dorsey: Ron Parker, Husain Abdullah, Kurt Coleman, Tyvon Branch, Sanders Commings, Kelcie McCray

In typical Pioli fashion, we again approach a position group where he was able to land a genuine, All Pro stud, while filling out the rest of the depth chart with inadequate talent. Kendrick Lewis was a huge liability for the entirety of his rookie contract until bottoming out in 2013. After that, it's garbage from Brown, Piscatelli, to the non-existent Menzie.

In typical Dorsey fashion, we again see a position group that's not top-heavy with an elite stud, but is staffed with very good, B+ talent. Nobody he cobbled together plays with Berry's All World talent, but Dorsey managed to replace the loss of Berry in 2014 with a combination of Parker, Abdullah, and Coleman and the secondary played even better. That's Other World stuff right there. Branch was a great pickup this offseason, and Comming looks extremely promising as a safety talent -- if only the guy would stay healthy.

Verdict: Dorsey by a hundred miles.

KICKER:

Pioli: Ryan Succop

Dorsey: Cairo Santos

This one is undecided, though Succop became a somewhat reliable kicker in his time, something which is unclear if Santos can become. We'll have a better idea, but until we do, Pioli takes this one for selecting a kicker that isn't as worthless as a sack of potatoes trying to tackle on special teams.

Verdict: Pioli, but who the hell really knows

HEAD COACH

Pioli: Todd Haley, Romeo Crennel

Dorsey: Andy Reid

I'm putting this here for completeness' sake. Pioli epically struck out with his head coaching hires, which ultimately spelled his doom. But Dorsey was actually selected by Andy Reid, not the other way around. So this is a comparison that cannot fairly be made.

 

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/5/21/8618891/gm-off-3-years-of-john-dorsey-vs-4-years-of-scott-pioli

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

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[KCSLC2008 606]

Some people call the QB a tie, but given Reid and Dorsey's track record (even IF it's overrated, it's better than Pioli's), Daniel's sufficient play in two should-have-been wins, and development picks, Dorsey gets the win for me. Smith is at least a tie, though I believe he wins between the two (especially in mobility and protection of the ball).

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Being a asshat. Pioli by a mile.