Guest WichitaZRide Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 It's hard to imagine a contract structure where the Chiefs didn't just grossly overpay a player. J.J. Watt was overpaid given his role for the Texans, regardless of his ability relative to other football players. Justin Houston isn't J.J. Watt, and yet will be paid more. Now that the Chiefs have diverted so much money to defense, be prepared for the inevitable slashing of the budget for offensive linemen. This extension may also have cost the Chiefs the ability to re-sign Dontari Poe, a key defensive player. Will Justin Houston prove to be the defense's keystone? Every football principle I am accustomed to down to this day says that an outside linebacker is never the piece to build around on defense, even if that outside linebacker is the best player on defense. I sure hope that the contract breakdown shows the way out for the Chiefs if Houston doesn't perform at an All-World level for years to come. Yeah....gonna be awfully tough to sign Poe next season considering our current 2016 cap is approx. 46 million dollars... This is how winning organizations operate. They reward their franchise players, while using the draft to build up new players that just don't make sense from a financial standpoint. There is a reason the Packers are always a Superbowl Contender, but at the same time 51 of the 52 players on their roster last season were drafted in house. At the same time, they are also able to cut loose above average talent each year due to costs being too high. Just think of it this way....we just royally screwed the Broncos. You know damn well Von Miller is pointing to this deal and already demanding more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WichitaZRide 321 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 There's only one problem here: Derrick Thomas' team never won a Super Bowl. But Lawrence Taylor won two.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol' Chief Woodenhead 0 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Really happy they were able to lock him up. Now just need go extend Poe. Mathis would be a great addition as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 But Lawrence Taylor won two.... Are you comparing Justin Houston to Lawrence Taylor? I'm not totally sold on Justin Houston's Hall of Fame credentials after only four seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCSLC2008 606 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yeah....gonna be awfully tough to sign Poe next season considering our current 2016 cap is approx. 46 million dollars... This is how winning organizations operate. They reward their franchise players, while using the draft to build up new players that just don't make sense from a financial standpoint. There is a reason the Packers are always a Superbowl Contender, but at the same time 51 of the 52 players on their roster last season were drafted in house. At the same time, they are also able to cut loose above average talent each year due to costs being too high. Just think of it this way....we just royally screwed the Broncos. You know damn well Von Miller is pointing to this deal and already demanding more... Although financially, a dollar is a dollar is a dollar, I prefer big contracts for home-grown players vs. FA splash moves. They've played in this system, often were picked by the current GM (though this could be bad if you have a bad GM), and they weren't leaving a good place for money (necessarily). I think if Houston were a FA in every sense, I would have been looking at the dollars more, even though, as I said, a dollar is a dollar is a dollar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yeah....gonna be awfully tough to sign Poe next season considering our current 2016 cap is approx. 46 million dollars... Make that a little less than $42.5 million before the Justin Houston extension: The void years on Tamba Hali's restructured contract will count $4 million in dead money currently not showing in the overthecap.com figures (although Poe's $6 million-plus fifth-year option would count toward any extension). Left Tackle Eric Fisher, Tight End Travis Kelce, and Halfback Knile Davis will be in the final year of their contracts. The projected CB1 for 2016 hasn't played a down in the NFL. Josh Mauga would be the only inside linebacker to have played an NFL down prior to 2015. And of course, Justin Houston's contract isn't accounted for. I'm really not concerned about 2016. I'm more concerned about 2017 and the years thereafter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eraser 722 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 You never know how things work out until the end of the contract. However, Houston is a fantastic player, and he seems to be grounded. I think the money was spent on the right guy. Let's hope there are no injuries that ruin the contract. The Chiefs freed up between 4 and 5 M this year. They should do something with it. It seems this team is building for now rather than later. That being the case, they should consider ditching Allen, and getting a starting RG. There are a couple out there, and a phone call to Evan Mathis' agent would be a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qnet 1,150 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I'm glad he got paid. I haven't been following a lot of Chiefs news so this was good to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tomahawkchop Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 You followed my logic to its completion, and then suddenly your train of thought derailed entirely, producing a completely unsound conclusion. You agreed with me and disagreed with me all at the same time. If this is only about 2015, it's a great decision. I'm thinking about 2015, 2016, 2017, and onward. Listening to Pat Kirwin in NFL radio today he said the contract was structured brilliantly to allow the Chiefs plenty of cap space over the next two years to resign players such as Poe, Berry, Sean Smith, etc. I guess Dorsey was thinking about 2015, 2016, 2017 and onward as well... guess that's why he's an NFL GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Listening to Pat Kirwin in NFL radio today he said the contract was structured brilliantly to allow the Chiefs plenty of cap space over the next two years to resign players such as Poe, Berry, Sean Smith, etc. I guess Dorsey was thinking about 2015, 2016, 2017 and onward as well... guess that's why he's an NFL GM. Did he have any more detail than simply, 'The Chiefs gave out a long-term contract the right way'? Did Houston accept a contract more like the prove-it contract Colin Kaepernick got from the 49ers in 2014? (I doubt it.) $32.5 million in guarantees would include a combination of signing bonus and fully guaranteed base salary, but without knowing the apportioning of those guarantees, I don't understand how anyone can say, "The contract was structured brilliantly." As I had mentioned at the outset, details have to come out before anyone can say this contract was good or not. Maybe the contract is just the newest version of the 2010's-era contracts with inflated totals to soothe the player's ego and make the agent happy coupled with de-escalators, incentives, and guaranteed base salaries that leave the General Manager some wiggle room in case a player ends up pulling an Albert Haynesworth. (I used that name for illustrative purposes only. I think Justin Houston is better than that.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calichief 3,016 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Are you comparing Justin Houston to Lawrence Taylor? I'm not totally sold on Justin Houston's Hall of Fame credentials after only four seasons. You weren't sold on the niners either, now you are here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eraser 722 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Are you comparing Justin Houston to Lawrence Taylor? I'm not totally sold on Justin Houston's Hall of Fame credentials after only four seasons. He has a good start. Let's see if he can finish as well as LT. At this point in his careeer, JH is better than LT, when LT was four years into his career. LT 1993 New York Giants 16 -- -- -- 6.0 -- 0 -- -- -- 0.0 -- 1992 New York Giants 9 -- -- -- 5.0 -- 0 -- -- -- 0.0 -- 1991 New York Giants 14 -- -- -- 7.0 -- 0 -- -- -- 0.0 -- 1990 New York Giants 16 -- -- -- 10.5 0 0 1 1 11 11.0 11T JH 2011 16 56 46 10 5.5 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 6 12 0 2012 16 66 53 13 10.0 1 1 4 1 32 32 32 0 6 3 5 0 2013 11 44 40 4 11.0 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 3 7 0 2014 16 68 59 9 22.0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 6 14 0 LT had 15 sacks in his fifth season, 15.5 sacks in his sixth season, and it wasn't until his 8th season, when LT surpassed 20 sacks in a season. Justin Houston has 20 more sacks than LT in his first four seasons. Justin Houston does not have the mental instability that cursed Lawrence Taylor. He is a better team player. He is probably going to be a better all around football player if he stays healthy, and continues on the trajectory he has set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calichief 3,016 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Houston is a great overall defender. It's not about sacks only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhitter 1,424 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Bottom line...you lock up your stud players. I guess I may be a little naive...but I am trusting Dorsey to know what he is doing. He does not seem like a buffoon who is just handing out massive checks and unaware of the consequences down the road. The time is now folks. We have a window where I think the defense is great overall. Special teams is at a high level. Coaching is the best we've had in a long time. If the offense improves even moderately...this is a team you can go far with. As stated in another thread, anything less than a playoff win this year is a failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Warpaint 3,234 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 It's hard to imagine a contract structure where the Chiefs didn't just grossly overpay a player. J.J. Watt was overpaid given his role for the Texans, regardless of his ability relative to other football players. Justin Houston isn't J.J. Watt, and yet will be paid more. Now that the Chiefs have diverted so much money to defense, be prepared for the inevitable slashing of the budget for offensive linemen. This extension may also have cost the Chiefs the ability to re-sign Dontari Poe, a key defensive player. Will Justin Houston prove to be the defense's keystone? Every football principle I am accustomed to down to this day says that an outside linebacker is never the piece to build around on defense, even if that outside linebacker is the best player on defense. I sure hope that the contract breakdown shows the way out for the Chiefs if Houston doesn't perform at an All-World level for years to come. on the contrary, i believe that the signing of Houston will put the team in better position to sign players like Poe and others. Players talk to each other and agents take notice of what goes on with their clients teams. Yes Poe will want some more money but dorsey is setting the team up nicely for the future by creating a good reputation that will lure FA's here in the future (Maclin is a great example even tho he came here more because of Reid than the chance to play for his hometown team) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 on the contrary, i believe that the signing of Houston will put the team in better position to sign players like Poe and others. Players talk to each other and agents take notice of what goes on with their clients teams. Yes Poe will want some more money but dorsey is setting the team up nicely for the future by creating a good reputation that will lure FA's here in the future (Maclin is a great example even tho he came here more because of Reid than the chance to play for his hometown team) Out of a roster of 61 players, you can only pay so many players well North of 10% of the total salary cap. Players talk to players, but they also have their own egos to satisfy, and when one player is making so much money, a lot of other players wonder why they aren't valued as highly. Giving away a contract like this is basically saying that Justin Houston is worth two excellent defensive players. I haven't yet seen an NFL defensive scheme where that philosophy holds any water. It'd be one thing if the Chiefs didn't extend anyone, but there are a lot of Chiefs players that earned re-signings at relatively reasonable numbers. Justin Houston's contract says that Justin Houston is the most important non-quarterback on the team, and the next player down the line (way down the line) in total salary cap hit (Jeremy Maclin) has never played a down in a Chiefs uniform. Therefore, the Chiefs are a team that will give a tenured player a big pay day, and will also give pay big money to attract a free agent veteran. There's no real special circumstance here that makes the Chiefs different from any of the other 31 NFL franchises except in the matter of degrees: The Green Bay Packers sign few free agents away from other teams, while the Miami Dolphins just bet the farm on Ndamukong Suh only a couple of years after promising big money to Mike Wallace. The Chiefs are like almost everyone else, so how does that give them leverage in future contract restructures or re-signings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Out of a roster of 61 players, you can only pay so many players well North of 10% of the total salary cap. Players talk to players, but they also have their own egos to satisfy, and when one player is making so much money, a lot of other players wonder why they aren't valued as highly. Giving away a contract like this is basically saying that Justin Houston is worth two excellent defensive players. I haven't yet seen an NFL defensive scheme where that philosophy holds any water. I think you are right. It is obvious that the Chiefs made a terrible error by paying so much to sign the heart and soul of their defense for the next half decade. Anytime you reward one player for greatness by paying what the marketplace for great players determines, rather than your own idea of what a player SHOULD be paid, another player is likely to be jealous and angry and become unmotivated to excel. The whole salary structure will be blown, and the esprit of the entire squad, the friendships, the sense of having each other's backs, their love for the fans, their respect for the coaches, and their enjoyment of the game and desire to perform at a high level will begin to deteriorate. The only way to run a football team is to pay for lots and lots of better-than-average players. Superstars don't bring Superbowls. It takes a whole squad of somewhat above average players to satisfy the fans and have a chance at dynastic greatness that spans decades. We should only hire a GM who is dedicated to making the soundest business decisions. Only then can we expect to win slightly more games than we lose every season. Only that will pack the stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Warpaint 3,234 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Out of a roster of 61 players, you can only pay so many players well North of 10% of the total salary cap. Players talk to players, but they also have their own egos to satisfy, and when one player is making so much money, a lot of other players wonder why they aren't valued as highly. Giving away a contract like this is basically saying that Justin Houston is worth two excellent defensive players. I haven't yet seen an NFL defensive scheme where that philosophy holds any water. It'd be one thing if the Chiefs didn't extend anyone, but there are a lot of Chiefs players that earned re-signings at relatively reasonable numbers. Justin Houston's contract says that Justin Houston is the most important non-quarterback on the team, and the next player down the line (way down the line) in total salary cap hit (Jeremy Maclin) has never played a down in a Chiefs uniform. Therefore, the Chiefs are a team that will give a tenured player a big pay day, and will also give pay big money to attract a free agent veteran. There's no real special circumstance here that makes the Chiefs different from any of the other 31 NFL franchises except in the matter of degrees: The Green Bay Packers sign few free agents away from other teams, while the Miami Dolphins just bet the farm on Ndamukong Suh only a couple of years after promising big money to Mike Wallace. The Chiefs are like almost everyone else, so how does that give them leverage in future contract restructures or re-signings? i never said it gives them any leverage, i simply said that a FA will take a look at the chiefs and give pause to maybe sign with them or use them like sanders did last year to get a better deal with someone else. The Team is a lot more attractive to players and agents than when Pioli was destroying moral a few short years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Warpaint 3,234 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think you are right. It is obvious that the Chiefs made a terrible error by paying so much to sign the heart and soul of their defense for the next half decade. Anytime you reward one player for greatness by paying what the marketplace for great players determines, rather than your own idea of what a player SHOULD be paid, another player is likely to be jealous and angry and become unmotivated to excel. The whole salary structure will be blown, and the esprit of the entire squad, the friendships, the sense of having each other's backs, their love for the fans, their respect for the coaches, and their enjoyment of the game and desire to perform at a high level will begin to deteriorate. The only way to run a football team is to pay for lots and lots of better-than-average players. Superstars don't bring Superbowls. It takes a whole squad of somewhat above average players to satisfy the fans and have a chance at dynastic greatness that spans decades. We should only hire a GM who is dedicated to making the soundest business decisions. Only then can we expect to win slightly more games than we lose every season. Only that will pack the stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 i never said it gives them any leverage, i simply said that a FA will take a look at the chiefs and give pause to maybe sign with them or use them like sanders did last year to get a better deal with someone else. The Team is a lot more attractive to players and agents than when Pioli was destroying moral a few short years ago It is true that few players want to play on a talentless roster, but that's a pretty low bar. I'm not arguing that John Dorsey is a bad General Manager; he's had a lot of work to do to reconstruct a competitive NFL roster, and he has done pretty well in that regard. But for the purposes of comparison: The Seahawks let some players of significance walk in 2014, most notably, Wide Receiver Golden Tate (now of the Lions, and very effective there) and Defensive Tackle Red Bryant (of the Jacksonville Jaguars). Neither of these players were best in the league at their positions, but they are the sorts of players that had been steady, reliable players of the sort where you can stand to lose a lot if you fail to replace them. There was a dropoff, and yet the Seahawks came within inches of winning a second consecutive Super Bowl. They've made their mistakes (trading for Percy Harvin), but they've washed their hands of them and have moved on. Part of their success relates to scouting, part of it relates to coaching, and part of it relates to management that has not overpaid for talent. They retained Richard Sherman, one of the best zone cornerbacks in the game, for about two-thirds the cost of Justin Houston's retention, and I will assert that the Seahawks got a far better deal on their player than the Chiefs could have gotten for the same player. Why? Because some General Managers are afraid to let a Best-in-His-Class player walk. So afraid, in fact, that they will sign a contract that greatly restricts cap flexibility in the future and can be overcome only on a better-than-average hit rate on draft picks. That gets used against the team in later contract talks. If a player really wants to stay in a certain situation because he loves his fans and his teammates, he doesn't cut off his franchise at the knees by asking for a contract that greatly restricts them from bringing on enough talent to contest for a league championship. Should Dorsey have let Dwayne Bowe walk, a player who had good fantasy football numbers for a year, but never helped his team to a post-season win? Yes! Am I concerned that the same will ultimately be true about Justin Houston. Yes, I am concerned. Two years from now, I don't really want to discuss whether or not it makes more sense to swallow a minimum of $12 million-plus of dead money to tear up Justin Houston's contract, especially if he did not help the Chiefs to at least a Super Bowl appearance. I'm hoping I don't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I thought it was pretty funny. Sarcastic, maybe. But funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugsy 225 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Very good news... I hope he remains a Chief for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Warpaint 3,234 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I thought it was pretty funny. Sarcastic, maybe. But funny. i do not know you as well as others, but i sensed it in your answer but i was not 100% sure... but you were right , it was funny and very well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 i do not know you as well as others, but i sensed it in your answer but i was not 100% sure... but you were right , it was funny and very well done I figured it was pretty obvious, and then I began to wonder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCSLC2008 606 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Heard Ian Rapoport talk about how Dorsey offered to make Houston the highest paid OLB this last October (Right above Mathews contract) but Houston turned it down. Then again gave him a stronger offer during the combine and Houston turned it down.So for everyone saying that Dorsey should have given Houston what he wanted are wrong. That's exactly what Dorsey did, but it was Houston that bet on himself and won!Can't really blame anyone as Dorsey did everything he could before, after, and deadline to get Houston under contract and Houston decided to pass up big time money and security to come out last year and try to get HIS big time contract...Which he more or less hit the jackpot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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