QB talk...

[WichitaZRide 321]

Ok...so obviously there is a MASSIVE debate amongst the Chiefs Kingdom about Alex smith.  I don't need to re-hash them. I just have a question for everyone:

 

Please name me ONE QB in the three years Dorsey has been in Charge that we could have realistically had that you would have actually have been happy with at the time.  I'm not defending Alex Smith and his happy feet, being chased by invisible lineman mannerisms by any means, but I don't see ANY scenario where we could realistically be in better shape at QB given draft position, trade position, or QB availability. 

 

In the last three years not one QB comes to mind being a FA that would have been a better decision than A. Smith.

 

In the last three drafts, the only QBs I saw that could have realistically been ours and would have actually have been a good move are Teddy Bridgewater and Derek Carr....but my memory tells me that very few, if any people on here would have been happy at the time with either move.

 

Most teams get a good QB because they absolutely suck and have a high draft pick.  We just happen to be the ONE team that sucks the ONE year there is no decent QB worth taking.

 

Alex Smith does some things well and some things poorly, but until a better situation comes along I contend he was our best option three years ago and is the best option out there for us today.  I'm not happy about it...but we need to quit blaming management as they have literally had no other choice...

[dhitter 1,424]

I don't really think any of us knows what could or could not have been done at the QB position. We look at who got drafted and the free agents and go "well those were the options". Creative managers think outside the box. It's why they get paid a lot of money building a team and we are beer guzzling fans sitting at home watching games on our tv. I am not so arrogant as to think because I cannot see viable options that there probably were none available. Fans think too highly of their GM abilities, 

 

Then the retort becomes "well if there was another option then why didn't we go that direction"? I can think of a lot of reasons. Stubbornness, fear, timing...again we don't sit in the GM's chair. We really don't know the full scope of what can or cannot be done...or the price it might cost to go another direction. All I know is that the Chiefs don't draft and develop QB's. We have always gotten someone else's castoff. The last time we tried to develop someone was Brokie Croyle (a bad choice) who never won a game as a starter. It's pathetic and the streak just keeps on rolling.

 

And for the record...I am not an Alex Smith hater. I just cannot continue believing he is any kind of an answer. 

[DieHard 2,061]

I have defended Smith from the start.  He has gotten worse at eye balling one receiver, scrambling to run instead of keeping his eyes down field and throwing it hard short but lobbing it long.  It was the hail mary play that you could see him scramble and know he has to throw it up for grabs and he just couldn't do it.

 

I think our poor WRs and poor line have turned him into David Carr.  I honestly don't think he will ever be as good as he was in San Fran.  I have a feeling he is gun shy and for good reason with our line that manages to play a little worse each week.  We have ruined Alex Smith (not that he was ever Rogers).  Just saying, he physically can't force himself to step up or roll out and focus down the field.

 

Chase Daniels gives us a better chance of winning this season.  I think Gil and DB were right about Alex Smith and I just didn't want to believe it.

[KC Warpaint 3,234]

 

Chase Daniels gives us a better chance of winning this season.  I think Gil and DB were right about Alex Smith and I just didn't want to believe it.

i think you are right, but they probably will not make that change unless AS gets injured...if the season spirals out of control then i say put murray in and see what he can do.

 

But with the Offensive line being the bag of crap that it is, we could put aaron rodgers back there and it would not make difference

[dhitter 1,424]

I have defended Smith from the start.  He has gotten worse at eye balling one receiver, scrambling to run instead of keeping his eyes down field and throwing it hard short but lobbing it long.  It was the hail mary play that you could see him scramble and know he has to throw it up for grabs and he just couldn't do it.

 

I think our poor WRs and poor line have turned him into David Carr.  I honestly don't think he will ever be as good as he was in San Fran.  I have a feeling he is gun shy and for good reason with our line that manages to play a little worse each week.  We have ruined Alex Smith (not that he was ever Rogers).  Just saying, he physically can't force himself to step up or roll out and focus down the field.

 

Chase Daniels gives us a better chance of winning this season.  I think Gil and DB were right about Alex Smith and I just didn't want to believe it.

I pretty much agree with this assessment. The one time Alex avoided the pressure, squared up and threw it he hit Maclin on a nice gainer. Trouble is once he starts dancing around he generally abandons all thought of passing downfield. He is gonna run and you can tell. The interception is what did it for me. All you have to do is drop a little lob pass over the defender...what 15 yards? And Alex threw it right to the defender. I can't think of any quality starting QB that I have ever seen do that. 

[DieHard 2,061]

We might ruin Murray thowing him in behind this line.  I like him on the bench learning at this point.

[Calichief 3,016]

 

i think you are right, but they probably will not make that change unless AS gets injured...if the season spirals out of control then i say put murray in and see what he can do.

 

But with the Offensive line being the bag of crap that it is, we could put aaron rodgers back there and it would not make difference[/quote

A lot of us were right about alex

[Calichief 3,016]

I have defended Smith from the start. He has gotten worse at eye balling one receiver, scrambling to run instead of keeping his eyes down field and throwing it hard short but lobbing it long. It was the hail mary play that you could see him scramble and know he has to throw it up for grabs and he just couldn't do it.

 

I think our poor WRs and poor line have turned him into David Carr. I honestly don't think he will ever be as good as he was in San Fran. I have a feeling he is gun shy and for good reason with our line that manages to play a little worse each week. We have ruined Alex Smith (not that he was ever Rogers). Just saying, he physically can't force himself to step up or roll out and focus down the field.

 

Chase Daniels gives us a better chance of winning this season. I think Gil and DB were right about Alex Smith and I just didn't want to believe it.

His line is SF was only good for a couple of years. He was already David carr

[azchief21 5,278]

I've mentioned this before. This is an organizational thing. Hunt needs to mandate this team gets a QB high in the draft and develop him. Make a commitment. Make a blockbuster trade on draft day to a team not looking for a QB.  Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning, Manning, Brady, Wilson. 12 of the last 14 Super Bowls Have been won by teams that drafted QBs. (I know Eli came over on draft day) Have you seen the list of QBs we've trotted out in this time frame? GMs and coaches are going to come in and try to save their jobs. Go get the "best available QB" to help them look successful immediately. Smith, Cassel, Bono, Grbac, etc. And just because they are the "best available" doesn't make them franchise QBs. It simply means that the team that let them go didn't think they were worth keeping for whatever reason. We are getting some team's backup QB. If we are going to continuously not win playoff games or not even going to the playoffs, we might as well do it while grooming an elite young QB that can make a us a perennial playoff contender. I'm willing to make the sacrifice. I get sick of everybody ranting and raving every 3 years about how awesome the latest castoff QB is going to be. And I know franchise QBs don't come out every year but when they do, go for it. 

[Guest Okiechief1]

I've mentioned this before. This is an organizational thing. Hunt needs to mandate this team gets a QB high in the draft and develop him. Make a commitment. Make a blockbuster trade on draft day to a team not looking for a QB. Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning, Manning, Brady, Wilson. 12 of the last 14 Super Bowls Have been won by teams that drafted QBs. (I know Eli came over on draft day) Have you seen the list of QBs we've trotted out in this time frame? GMs and coaches are going to come in and try to save their jobs. Go get the "best available QB" to help them look successful immediately. Smith, Cassel, Bono, Grbac, etc. And just because they are the "best available" doesn't make them franchise QBs. It simply means that the team that let them go didn't think they were worth keeping for whatever reason. We are getting some team's backup QB. If we are going to continuously not win playoff games or not even going to the playoffs, we might as well do it while grooming an elite young QB that can make a us a perennial playoff contender. I'm willing to make the sacrifice. I get sick of everybody ranting and raving every 3 years about how awesome the latest castoff QB is going to be. And I know franchise QBs don't come out every year but when they do, go for it.

87 is the last time we drafted a QB that won a game for us. I think Croyle was the only one really given any kind of a chance to in that time frame.

 

Kinda sad when you think about it.

[BroncoStud 3,253]

I initially thought bringing in Alex Smith was a coupe for the Chiefs, because I felt he was the better QB in San Francisco, and I really liked his playstyle at Utah (NCAA).  However, after a few years of watching him in this offense...  He is actually regressing...  He doesn't see the field, he almost ALWAYS checks down, he doesn't step up when the Chiefs NEED him to step up, and surprisingly, he doesn't use his mobility that well.

 

The fact that the Chiefs have gone so long with no WR touchdowns is the biggest tell to me.  He has no confidence in his arm or throwing down the field.  He just doesn't. 

 

I don't entirely fault Dorsey for paying the man, afterall, the Chiefs almost won a playoff game until the Colts rallied, but Smith looks lost, and he doesn't seem to be getting proper direction from Reid.  The offense really has no identity.

[KCSLC2008 606]

I initially thought bringing in Alex Smith was a coupe for the Chiefs, because I felt he was the better QB in San Francisco, and I really liked his playstyle at Utah (NCAA). However, after a few years of watching him in this offense... He is actually regressing... He doesn't see the field, he almost ALWAYS checks down, he doesn't step up when the Chiefs NEED him to step up, and surprisingly, he doesn't use his mobility that well.

 

The fact that the Chiefs have gone so long with no WR touchdowns is the biggest tell to me. He has no confidence in his arm or throwing down the field. He just doesn't.

 

I don't entirely fault Dorsey for paying the man, afterall, the Chiefs almost won a playoff game until the Colts rallied, but Smith looks lost, and he doesn't seem to be getting proper direction from Reid. The offense really has no identity.

I'm the second biggest Smith supporter here and I don't have much to say against what you said. But I do think a low WR TD stat is more significant than the number zero. I mean, if Jenkins doesn't step out of bounds for no reason, if he doesn't trip over the 1 yard line, if receivers don't drop the easy catch, would Smith be a better QB? No, the "zero" would be gone, but he'd be the same.

 

Sometimes a TE or RB lines up as a receiver, but that doesn't count, despite the same route, same defense, etc. Same difficulty of throw.

 

If Smith throws a two yard pass to Avery/Bowe who takes it to the house, is Smith any better? No, but the zero would have been gone.

 

I would look at YPA (middle this year), third down (not good, but some on penalties/oline), and red zone conversions (could be better but some is on Reid).

 

As far as regressing, it's only been three games, of which Smith was noted to be taking some risks in Week 1. Two bad games (though one isn't as bad as some make it to be) to me isn't enough. It wouldn't have been enough to claim a new Alex had he played well. Add in Reid, turnovers, and oline and it's not going to be good. I'll leave the WRs be because while they don't get separation, the oline, playcall, and QB in no order contribute much to their low numbers.

[azchief21 5,278]

My hope is that when Sean Smith returns that the D can gel in to a dominant Defense. So along with JC maybe we can Dilfer our way to the playoffs.

[PhataLerror 370]

I think our poor WRs and poor line have turned him into David Carr.  I honestly don't think he will ever be as good as he was in San Fran the 2013 AFC Wild Card Playoff.  I have a feeling he is gun shy and for good reason with our line that manages to play a little worse each week.  We have ruined Alex Smith (not that he was ever Rogers).  Just saying, he physically can't force himself to step up or roll out and focus down the field.

Fixed. If the Chiefs can fix their worst-in-the-league pass protection, Smith will get a little more production out of the back end of the receiver corps.

 

Smith isn't ruined. San Francisco fans were saying that about Smith back in 2011 before Smith helped the 49ers to a 13-3 regular season and were on the cusp of going to the Super Bowl. The reality is that the Chiefs are fielding what could very well be one of the worst offensive lines Smith has ever played with in his decade-long career.

[PhataLerror 370]

This probably has gone unnoticed, but Smith is on pace to throw for over 3,800 yards, 21 touchdowns, and 16 interceptions. If the Chiefs can get the line settled down, the total yardage and interceptions should drop, and the number of touchdowns should rise.

[Guest Holmes4six]

Reid's play calling don't help either. They continue to be in 3rd and long because of Reid's play calling. Why do we run swing plays? Everybody knows there coming. Put smith and the o line in 3 Rd and short and then let's play. It's not rocket science. No wonder we haven't converted. It's the play calling. Yes our line is weak but who's isn't when the d knows you ain't going deep and all they have to do is man up and bring the heat. It just blows my mind Reid doesn't give his players a chance to win. A interception on a 40 yd pass isn't all that bad. At least set the fuckin tone. Another thing that pisses me off is no one has any fight or nastiness to them. Smiths helmet gets ripped off and no one picks him up or sticks up for him. Fuckin miller and his cheap shots and no one does nothing. Chiefs need to play on the edge and take the occasional 15 yd personal set the tone again.

[PhataLerror 370]

****** miller and his cheap shots and no one does nothing. Chiefs need to play on the edge and take the occasional 15 yd personal set the tone again.

I still don't understand why Miller wasn't suspended for that hit.

[KC Warpaint 3,234]

i would like to see our DC and AS figure out who the weakest link is on an opposing Defense every week and exploit that .

 

That is what Manning and Rodgers did to us with flamming and brunch

[artsy 1,137]

i would like to see our DC and AS figure out who the weakest link is on an opposing Defense every week and exploit that .

 

That is what Manning and Rodgers did to us with flamming and brunch

If you recall, AS11 tried picking on GB's rookie DB, but Smith's throws were not accurate enough to make the rookie pay. And one more thing about Reid's playcalling.....PUULEASE stop bringing DAT in and running plays to him!!

 

Every time DAT comes in the game, the defense keys in on him and the play is usually a loss! If Reid wants to get DAT infused in the game, then he needs leave him in for a few plays so the defense will stop keying in on him.....Damn, so predictable.

[PhataLerror 370]

i would like to see our DC and AS figure out who the weakest link is on an opposing Defense every week and exploit that .

 

That is what Manning and Rodgers did to us with flamming and brunch

Do you believe it to be as simple as 'The Chiefs' eleventh-best player on defense is as bad as the Chiefs' opponent's eleventh-best defensive player'?

 

Is it even possible that the weakest link on defense isn't a player, but rather, Bob Sutton? He was the reason the Chiefs lost 44-45 in the 2013 AFC Wild Card Playoff.

 

The Chiefs' roster has improved over time, but they are still starting players that have never been considered among the best at their position. Dontari Poe was coming off of back surgery. Until the return of Sean Smith, their CB3 and CB4 in Fleming and Cooper have been two of the worst cornerbacks in the league. Do not confuse the Chiefs as being a team with a deeply talented defense. They have some excellent players in Poe and Berry (when healthy), Houston, Johnson, and to a lesser extent an aging Hali and a promising but unproven Peters. After that, there's a lot of players that are filling in until the players behind them progress, as well as young players that are still learning their position. After holding down a Texans squad that featured a subsequently benched Brian Hoyer, they have not demonstrated that they are a top-ten defense. When the offensive line struggles, the defense hasn't stepped up. Good defenses don't give up 24 points in less than 21 minutes of the opponent's first six possessions of the game where every possession starts on the opponent's side of the field, regardless of who is playing across from them.

 

That is not to say that there isn't blame to go around elsewhere. This defense would have been in a better position to make stops if the offensive line would have done enough for the Chiefs to string together some plays on offense, spelling the defense, giving Sutton time to work out alternatives, and keeping Aaron Rodgers off the field in the first place. Sandwiched between the Packers' six drives were a third-and-short pass Smith didn't complete, an unconverted 3rd-and-13 after back-to-back runs, a three dropback series ending in a sack, a short touchdown drive made possible by a deep Smith pass that cut the Packers' lead to 7 points, and finally a 3rd-and-4 that ended up losing 7 yards when the defense recognized the play. The lack of protection by the offensive line has limited the portion of the Chiefs' West Coast Offense playbook that can be used effectively, leading to predictable play calling and big losses on screen plays and other designed catch-and-run plays.

[artsy 1,137]

Do you believe it to be as simple as 'The Chiefs' eleventh-best player on defense is as bad as the Chiefs' opponent's eleventh-best defensive player'?

 

Is it even possible that the weakest link on defense isn't a player, but rather, Bob Sutton? He was the reason the Chiefs lost 44-45 in the 2013 AFC Wild Card Playoff.

 

The Chiefs' roster has improved over time, but they are still starting players that have never been considered among the best at their position. Dontari Poe was coming off of back surgery. Until the return of Sean Smith, their CB3 and CB4 in Fleming and Cooper have been two of the worst cornerbacks in the league. Do not confuse the Chiefs as being a team with a deeply talented defense. They have some excellent players in Poe and Berry (when healthy), Houston, Johnson, and to a lesser extent an aging Hali and a promising but unproven Peters. After that, there's a lot of players that are filling in until the players behind them progress, as well as young players that are still learning their position. After holding down a Texans squad that featured a subsequently benched Brian Hoyer, they have not demonstrated that they are a top-ten defense. When the offensive line struggles, the defense hasn't stepped up. Good defenses don't give up 24 points in less than 21 minutes of the opponent's first six possessions of the game where every possession starts on the opponent's side of the field, regardless of who is playing across from them.

 

That is not to say that there isn't blame to go around elsewhere. This defense would have been in a better position to make stops if the offensive line would have done enough for the Chiefs to string together some plays on offense, spelling the defense, giving Sutton time to work out alternatives, and keeping Aaron Rodgers off the field in the first place. Sandwiched between the Packers' six drives were a third-and-short pass Smith didn't complete, an unconverted 3rd-and-13 after back-to-back runs, a three dropback series ending in a sack, a short touchdown drive made possible by a deep Smith pass that cut the Packers' lead to 7 points, and finally a 3rd-and-4 that ended up losing 7 yards when the defense recognized the play. The lack of protection by the offensive line has limited the portion of the Chiefs' West Coast Offense playbook that can be used effectively, leading to predictable play calling and big losses on screen plays and other designed catch-and-run plays.

Agree. I'm starting to think that Sutton is really "retarded". Opposing qb's keep targeting your weakest DB's over and over again, and his solution is to line the guy right back up, series after series and watch him get torched by playing press man coverage. Damnit, if you don't have the horses to play the coverage, then STOP RUNNING THE DAMN COVERAGE!!!

 

You can't play man to man, if your DB's can't play man to man. At least try and protect them a little by playing zone. Geez, it's like our coaching staff doesn't give a shit.

 

IDK, maybe the game is quickly passing both Sutton and Reid by. Maybe they're old school guys, that cannot change the way they have coached football.

 

How in the hell can you run a West Coast offense, with the shittiest oline in the NFL?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the WC Offense  predicated on passing the ball ??????

 

Good grief....

[KC Warpaint 3,234]

Do you believe it to be as simple as 'The Chiefs' eleventh-best player on defense is as bad as the Chiefs' opponent's eleventh-best defensive player'?

 

Is it even possible that the weakest link on defense isn't a player, but rather, Bob Sutton? He was the reason the Chiefs lost 44-45 in the 2013 AFC Wild Card Playoff.

 

The Chiefs' roster has improved over time, but they are still starting players that have never been considered among the best at their position. Dontari Poe was coming off of back surgery. Until the return of Sean Smith, their CB3 and CB4 in Fleming and Cooper have been two of the worst cornerbacks in the league. Do not confuse the Chiefs as being a team with a deeply talented defense. They have some excellent players in Poe and Berry (when healthy), Houston, Johnson, and to a lesser extent an aging Hali and a promising but unproven Peters. After that, there's a lot of players that are filling in until the players behind them progress, as well as young players that are still learning their position. After holding down a Texans squad that featured a subsequently benched Brian Hoyer, they have not demonstrated that they are a top-ten defense. When the offensive line struggles, the defense hasn't stepped up. Good defenses don't give up 24 points in less than 21 minutes of the opponent's first six possessions of the game where every possession starts on the opponent's side of the field, regardless of who is playing across from them.

 

That is not to say that there isn't blame to go around elsewhere. This defense would have been in a better position to make stops if the offensive line would have done enough for the Chiefs to string together some plays on offense, spelling the defense, giving Sutton time to work out alternatives, and keeping Aaron Rodgers off the field in the first place. Sandwiched between the Packers' six drives were a third-and-short pass Smith didn't complete, an unconverted 3rd-and-13 after back-to-back runs, a three dropback series ending in a sack, a short touchdown drive made possible by a deep Smith pass that cut the Packers' lead to 7 points, and finally a 3rd-and-4 that ended up losing 7 yards when the defense recognized the play. The lack of protection by the offensive line has limited the portion of the Chiefs' West Coast Offense playbook that can be used effectively, leading to predictable play calling and big losses on screen plays and other designed catch-and-run plays.

 

 

i really did not bother to read the rest of your post because of the condescending style which you started the post with. you seem to enjoy doing this to a lot of people here to try to impress us with your football knowledge

[PhataLerror 370]

i really did not bother to read the rest of your post because of the condescending style which you started the post with. you seem to enjoy doing this to a lot of people here to try to impress us with your football knowledge

I can't begin to understand why you thought that I was talking down to you. I started my response with an inference based on your post. You are hardly the most acerbic personality on this board, and I have no ax to grind with you.

 

As for the scope of my "football knowledge", I grew up in the San Francisco area, and I was raised on West Coast Offense football. I never played, although my dad coached in low-level leagues and taught me a lot about the game. I don't talk about that generally because it is irrelevant: The things I say stand on their own merits, and don't require some sort of "experience" to validate it. Either what I say is true or false, and if it is false, it can be exposed through research and anecdotal evidence. You are invited to express your differing opinion.

[liquidfriend 1,151]

Lmbo Phata doing his thing again.

 

The Indy loss was a team loss. Sutton failed to make adjustments yes, but Andy and the offense tried to martyball the 2nd half of the game out and allowed Indy to get back in it.

[PhataLerror 370]

Lmbo Phata doing his thing again.

 

The Indy loss was a team loss. Sutton failed to make adjustments yes, but Andy and the offense tried to martyball the 2nd half of the game out and allowed Indy to get back in it.

No, that's not what happened. Your selective memory is kicking in again. Go back and check the play-by-play. The Chiefs' defense was giving up points so quickly that you couldn't even argue that they were gassed. When a quarterback helps his offense put up 44 points, there's no assailing his ability at that point, especially with a bunch of his players missing.