KC Warpaint 3,234 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 The Chiefs began contract talks with Jaye Howard in November, and it appears those talks have not stalled as the team has maintained “solid dialogue” with him, a source told The Star. The source added that Howard's future with the club remains a “fluid” situation. Howard, who is listed at 6 feet 3, bulked up to 320 pounds last offseason and proceeded to have a breakout season in a contract year for the Chiefs in 2015, as he posted career highs in tackles (57) and sacks (5 1/2) and 16 games (13 starts). He was the Chiefs' highest-rated interior defensive lineman, according to Pro Football Focus, and he played the second-most snaps with 843 — second only to Dontari Poe, who played 867. The 27-year-old was a fourth-round pick out of Florida by the Seahawks in 2012. He was waived before the 2013 season and claimed by the Chiefs. He became a part-time starter in 2014, when he recorded 36 tackles and one sack in 16 games (10 starts) as the replacement for starting defensive end Mike DeVito, who was lost for the year in the season opener. Howard broke out this season, putting the club in a bit of a dilemma. According to former agent and salary cap expert Joel Corry, the Chiefs probably don’t have enough salary-cap room to take care of Howard and Dontari Poe, who will be a free agent after 2016. The Chiefs already handed defensive end Allen Bailey a four-year, $24 million extension in fall 2014, and most teams can’t afford three well-paid interior linemen. “You either have to be resigned to the fact you’re going to lose Dontari Poe — who is going to be very expensive — or you could try to get cute,” Corry said. Corry said the top free-agent interior defensive lineman last year was Dan Williams, who got $25 million over four years from Oakland. Corry said the cost to franchise Howard will approach $13 million, which isn’t reasonable. But the transition tender is a little more palatable; it was $9.3 million a year ago. A transition tag would allow Howard to negotiate a contract with any club and give the Chiefs the chance to match. Howard could test his worth on the market, maximize his value and give the Chiefs an outside chance at keeping a very strong interior defensive line together. Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/red-zone/article57599758.html#storylink=cpy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Sign him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefmania 22 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Just curious, but would you rather sign him and let Poe walk next year. That might not be the popular decision, but it could very well be the correct one. I like Poe, and think he does so much for the DL, but is he the best player of the two? I do not think that stats would back him as being the better player, and we all go on and on about what a physical freak he is, but other than clogging the middle sometimes it does not seem like Poe does not produce as much as we would assume he should. Just a thought, and one that I'm glad someone else has to figure out. Decisions like these are why you get paid the big bucks, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Just curious, but would you rather sign him and let Poe walk next year. That might not be the popular decision, but it could very well be the correct one. I like Poe, and think he does so much for the DL, but is he the best player of the two? I do not think that stats would back him as being the better player, and we all go on and on about what a physical freak he is, but other than clogging the middle sometimes it does not seem like Poe does not produce as much as we would assume he should. Just a thought, and one that I'm glad someone else has to figure out. Decisions like these are why you get paid the big bucks, I guess. I didn't assume that there was only a choice of Poe or Howard. I would keep them both in an ideal world, but if your premise of one or the other were true, I would choose Poe. Do you really think that is the choice, or is that question just hypothetical? Having Howard rotate at all three positions along the D-line, if he is versatile enough, would put the Chiefs defense in the driver's seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I didn't assume that there was only a choice of Poe or Howard. I would keep them both in an ideal world, but if your premise of one or the other were true, I would choose Poe. Do you really think that is the choice, or is that question just hypothetical? Having Howard rotate at all three positions along the D-line, if he is versatile enough, would put the Chiefs defense in the driver's seat. Weeks ago it was a hypothetical question, but with the extension of Travis Kelce, it's going to become harder to sign the better mid-tier players, of which Jaye Howard is one. Cap-wise, the Chiefs are at a point where when they say, "Yes", they're also saying, "No." I like both, but this may be more about whether the Chiefs extend Poe, or whether they re-sign Howard. Neither player's agent has provided an opening for a no-brainer sort of deal, but the Chiefs would be savvy to go back to each agent saying, "Can you meet in the middle better than the other guy can?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West 6,714 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Chiefs are going to have to give a few "old timers" partial "yeses".... Like, " We want you back, but at the right price...." POE is a keeper, the guy is one of a kind and he will only improve. w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMO 6,811 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Chiefs are going to have to give a few "old timers" partial "yeses".... Like, " We want you back, but at the right price...." POE is a keeper, the guy is one of a kind and he will only improve. w Not sure on Poe. Once you have a back surgery, you are usually open to future problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHard 2,061 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Poe is moe valuable than Howard to me, but if you can get Howard much cheaper that would be the way to go. I feel like we will have to over pay for Poe. He is worth it, but we are hurting more on the other side of the line IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefmania 22 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Do you ever feel like you think something in your head, and then when you go to put it in a post that it just doesn't look as good? When I was debating between Poe and Howard, what I was thinking in my head was whether or not Poe would have to be signed for an arm and a leg compared to Howard. I would prefer to have both on the DL, but not sure that will be an option. Hopefully I am wrong in that assumption, by I have a feeling that they will either have to sign Howard, with the intent of letting Poe walk, or not sign Howard, with the intent of extending Poe. My biggest concern with Poe is whether or not his back will continue to be a problem or if it was just a one time deal. Just thinking worst case scenarios I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Do you ever feel like you think something in your head, and then when you go to put it in a post that it just doesn't look as good? When I was debating between Poe and Howard, what I was thinking in my head was whether or not Poe would have to be signed for an arm and a leg compared to Howard. I would prefer to have both on the DL, but not sure that will be an option. Hopefully I am wrong in that assumption, by I have a feeling that they will either have to sign Howard, with the intent of letting Poe walk, or not sign Howard, with the intent of extending Poe. My biggest concern with Poe is whether or not his back will continue to be a problem or if it was just a one time deal. Just thinking worst case scenarios I guess. I worry about Poe's back because of his weight. He's a big, big man. He'll get a long-term deal. I'm not sure that he'll be able to play the last half of it without constant rest. You just can't sign that guy, regardless of his potential when he's healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eraser 722 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Could the big push to keep Howard over Poe be a hint? Jaye Howard is better suited at 4-3 than 3-4. Poe is likely only a 3-4 NT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Not sure on Poe. Once you have a back surgery, you are usually open to future problems. How can you say "usually?" That is a generalization based on anecdotal experience. It is like saying that once there is a fire, there will be permanent problems, without knowing whether it was a campfire or the firebombing of a building. There are a gazillion different types and levels of back injury. Was it just a bulging disc that was trimmed away, or were there vertebral bone spurs and damage that would cause instability and eventual vertebral stenosis? You can't generalize based on one experience or a personal experience with a generic "back injury." From what I read, it was simple bulging disc. My gosh, he was back on the field in four weeks and was his old self in six. That doesn't sound like something he is going to be susceptible to in the future. I agree with West. He is one of a kind. Poe has to be kept and kept happy no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eraser 722 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Dontari Poe is in his final year, and the Chiefs did exercise the fifth year option. That means the Chiefs retain him for another year at his rookie contract, and they can kick his new contract down the road for one more season. It also means they can trade him to another team. If the Chiefs are able to sign Jaye Howard to an extension, he might be a better fit with their eventual plans. Howard is not as good of a pure NT, but he is more versatile. Howard can play NT, DT, DE, and in the 3-4 or the 4-3. The Chiefs, if they sign Howard, may not be able to afford Poe. So, it may be one and done for Poe. There would be teams interested in a 346 lb NT, who can move as well as Poe. One team I can think of is the Tennessee Titans. The Titans moved from the 4-3 to a 3-4, and have no one fit to play at the NT. Al Wood, and Sammie Hill did not cut it. They also have a ton of CAP space in the future, and the number one pick in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMO 6,811 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 How can you say "usually?" That is a generalization based on anecdotal experience. It is like saying that once there is a fire, there will be permanent problems, without knowing whether it was a campfire or the firebombing of a building. There are a gazillion different types and levels of back injury. Was it just a bulging disc that was trimmed away, or were there vertebral bone spurs and damage that would cause instability and eventual vertebral stenosis? You can't generalize based on one experience or a personal experience with a generic "back injury." From what I read, it was simple bulging disc. My gosh, he was back on the field in four weeks and was his old self in six. That doesn't sound like something he is going to be susceptible to in the future. I agree with West. He is one of a kind. Poe has to be kept and kept happy no matter what. whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 whatever Sorry, Semo. I should have gotten at least an "eye roll" for that pretentious post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Warpaint 3,234 Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 Sorry, Semo. I should have gotten at least an "eye roll" for that pretentious post. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMO 6,811 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Sorry, Semo. I should have gotten at least an "eye roll" for that pretentious post. Whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlwaysChiefs 82 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I think we have begun to take Poe for granted. If we are going to stay with a 3-4 defense, we need Poe, period. When the Chiefs made the decision to move to a 3-4, the lack of an elite NT limited the effectiveness of the defense. Elite NTs are rare indeed. When we drafted Poe so high, many were outraged. When he suddenly emerged as one of the top NTs in the league, we were all thrilled. Only then did this defense really start to evolve. Very few defensive linemen have the bulk and strength to clog that middle and without that, a 3-4 doesn't stop the run. Further, few NTs have Poe's quickness and play three downs. We gotta keep Poe at any price, IMO. Contrast that to Howard's one admittedly good year and this is a no-brainer to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 The big advantage of the 3-4 defense is the versatility of the pass rushing schemes and the efficient run-stopping capacity of the scheme. The big disadvantage of the 3-4 was shown in the Chiefs' most recent playoff loss: If your coverage isn't there, it really doesn't matter whether or not you get free blitzers, because they don't get free quickly enough before the ball is already out of the quarterback's hand. Poe is not a keep-at-all-costs player because the present staff (and therefore personnel) are evidently unable to exploit the physical and technical advantages Poe brings. If the Chiefs had a cornerback that could cover elite slot receivers, maybe that would be different. The cost of bringing in the latter would leave no money for the former. The only way Poe stays is if he wants to stay. (There is actually no such thing anymore. Elite players take pay cuts only to play on persistent post-season contenders, and the Chiefs' organization hasn't developed the résumé for that yet.) I like Poe, but he's doesn't bring value. This is the salary cap era. There will be no more best-at-every-position teams. The Patriots are the only thing that will be close to that because by their recent history they can attract such a wide range of free agents merely on the likelihood that each year they will contend for a Super Bowl appearance. <rant>I'm so irritated over the big-money signing of Justin Houston. Why would an elite player want to stay in Kansas City when the franchise can't afford to pay them anything like the money going to a player they will see themselves as being similar to? When a team signs highest-in-league contracts, it leads to elite players at other positions leaving for other teams. When the Chiefs signed Houston, it led directly to this situation: A bunch of free agents, and very little money to offer any of them.</rant> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I think we have begun to take Poe for granted. If we are going to stay with a 3-4 defense, we need Poe, period. When the Chiefs made the decision to move to a 3-4, the lack of an elite NT limited the effectiveness of the defense. Elite NTs are rare indeed. When we drafted Poe so high, many were outraged. When he suddenly emerged as one of the top NTs in the league, we were all thrilled. Only then did this defense really start to evolve. Very few defensive linemen have the bulk and strength to clog that middle and without that, a 3-4 doesn't stop the run. Further, few NTs have Poe's quickness and play three downs. We gotta keep Poe at any price, IMO. Contrast that to Howard's one admittedly good year and this is a no-brainer to me. And to me. It would be great to keep Howard but may be a luxury the Chiefs cannot afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHard 2,061 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 The big advantage of the 3-4 defense is the versatility of the pass rushing schemes and the efficient run-stopping capacity of the scheme. The big disadvantage of the 3-4 was shown in the Chiefs' most recent playoff loss: If your coverage isn't there, it really doesn't matter whether or not you get free blitzers, because they don't get free quickly enough before the ball is already out of the quarterback's hand. Poe is not a keep-at-all-costs player because the present staff (and therefore personnel) are evidently unable to exploit the physical and technical advantages Poe brings. If the Chiefs had a cornerback that could cover elite slot receivers, maybe that would be different. The cost of bringing in the latter would leave no money for the former. The only way Poe stays is if he wants to stay. (There is actually no such thing anymore. Elite players take pay cuts only to play on persistent post-season contenders, and the Chiefs' organization hasn't developed the résumé for that yet.) I like Poe, but he's doesn't bring value. This is the salary cap era. There will be no more best-at-every-position teams. The Patriots are the only thing that will be close to that because by their recent history they can attract such a wide range of free agents merely on the likelihood that each year they will contend for a Super Bowl appearance. I'm so irritated over the big-money signing of Justin Houston. Why would an elite player want to stay in Kansas City when the franchise can't afford to pay them anything like the money going to a player they will see themselves as being similar to? When a team signs highest-in-league contracts, it leads to elite players at other positions leaving for other teams. When the Chiefs signed Houston, it led directly to this situation: A bunch of free agents, and very little money to offer any of them. Lunacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eraser 722 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Tennessee has the #1 pick in the draft. There is no way they will be willing to surrender Poe for their #1 pick. Mularkey took over for Wissenhunt, and will make changes. The first need for Tennessee is an OT. They could not protect their quarterback, and Mularkey will do what he can to make sure that situation does not repeat itself. However, Tennessee probably wants multiple picks more than they want the best OT in the draft. They could trade that pick to San Diego (who very much needs a OT). Poe, and the #28 pick from the Chiefs would be close to the value for #3. San Diego would have to give up their #1 and #2 to go to the number one overall. That would give San Diego the #1 pick and LT Tunsil will be their choice. KC needs a #1 WR, and it would be hard to overlook Treadwell. Some have Laquon Treadwell going as low as 6th in round one. I don't. http://www.musiccitymiracles.com/2016/1/8/10711584/laquon-treadwell-2016-nfl-draft-scouting-report Maclin is more of a #2 WR. He can be a #1, but would be more productive if the Chiefs had a true #1 guy, and Maclin got less attention from the defenders. Lequon Treadwell is 6'3", and weighs 230 lbs. He will run a 4.5 to 4.55. That's not super fast, but Treadwell uses his body to out-muscle defenders. He has lots of yards after the catch because he doesn't go down easy. I think he would be ideal for the Chiefs' offense. Maclin has more speed, but both will battle for the ball. Wilson would be the slot receiver, and Conley is more suited for X. Treadwell is only 19 years of age. Maclin should be able to groom Treadwell, and both could compliment each other in the offense. So, the Chiefs surrender Poe, and their #28 for Treadwell. Tennessee gives up their #1 overall, but get Poe, they get a CB with #28, and use their #33 and #35 on a RT and RB. With two trades, the Titans can fix their deepest needs on their team. The biggest problem for SD is a starting LT. The Chiefs need a premier WR. No one loses in this deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilyous2 884 Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Tennessee has the #1 pick in the draft. There is no way they will be willing to surrender Poe for their #1 pick. Mularkey took over for Wissenhunt, and will make changes. The first need for Tennessee is an OT. They could not protect their quarterback, and Mularkey will do what he can to make sure that situation does not repeat itself. However, Tennessee probably wants multiple picks more than they want the best OT in the draft. They could trade that pick to San Diego (who very much needs a OT). Poe, and the #28 pick from the Chiefs would be close to the value for #3. San Diego would have to give up their #1 and #2 to go to the number one overall. That would give San Diego the #1 pick and LT Tunsil will be their choice. KC needs a #1 WR, and it would be hard to overlook Treadwell. Some have Laquon Treadwell going as low as 6th in round one. I don't. http://www.musiccitymiracles.com/2016/1/8/10711584/laquon-treadwell-2016-nfl-draft-scouting-report Maclin is more of a #2 WR. He can be a #1, but would be more productive if the Chiefs had a true #1 guy, and Maclin got less attention from the defenders. Lequon Treadwell is 6'3", and weighs 230 lbs. He will run a 4.5 to 4.55. That's not super fast, but Treadwell uses his body to out-muscle defenders. He has lots of yards after the catch because he doesn't go down easy. I think he would be ideal for the Chiefs' offense. Maclin has more speed, but both will battle for the ball. Wilson would be the slot receiver, and Conley is more suited for X. Treadwell is only 19 years of age. Maclin should be able to groom Treadwell, and both could compliment each other in the offense. So, the Chiefs surrender Poe, and their #28 for Treadwell. Tennessee gives up their #1 overall, but get Poe, they get a CB with #28, and use their #33 and #35 on a RT and RB. With two trades, the Titans can fix their deepest needs on their team. The biggest problem for SD is a starting LT. The Chiefs need a premier WR. No one loses in this deal. I don't think so. The Chiefs get a 19 year old who won't even reflexively know the routes before his contract is up. And like all supposedly "can't miss" receivers, we have no idea how he will handle the kind of coverage he will get, or if he will have fumble-itis or slippery hands under NFL level pressure. He is an unknown quantity until he proves it. On the other hand, Poe is young and the best NT in the business. I think we have the WR's on the squad right now who will develop. And we cannot forget about what Demetrius Harris will bring in two TE sets, and maybe O'Shaunessy also. But the most important thing to me is that the Chiefs have a window of a few years to win the Championship. Treadwell would come into his own about the time that the team begins to have bigger holes to fill. If you look at the record, the WR's who end up the best usually are the third or fourth "best" taken, often late in the first round or in the second round. I think we can trust Dorsey and Reid to make good decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azchief21 5,278 Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 I don't understand the need for a WR in the 1st round. If we can't do it with Maclin, Wilson/Conley, Kelce @ TE and Charles/West out of the backfield with maybe a mid round WR or FA then maybe the receiving core isn't the problem. I agree with Bil, this has to be taken care of by Dorsey without spending a #1 or even #2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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