liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 There was a rumor flying around that the Saints might be looking to move Cooks to get more Defensive help. They need help in the worst way on Defense and Michael Thomas looks like he's going to be the Chiefs top WR. Payton has denied that he's being actively shopped, but I don't see them giving him a big money deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Brandin Cooks may prove to be less of a receiver than Tyreek Hill could become. Cooks failed to make significant progress as a receiver. Everything I've seen says he is more athlete than football player. His official weight as listed on nfl.com is less than his weight listed in his pre-draft scouting report. It's not often that the Saints fail to find a player with Cooks' talent to be superfluous within their offense. That's a red flag. Dee Ford may not prove to be worth much, but there's a reason that there have been rumbles about the Saints moving Cooks for some time. You don't hear that about Ford. Cooks is going to be looking for WR1 money, but he's a high-end slot receiver at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azchief21 5,278 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 How about Ford and Smith for Brees and let's win this damn thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefensiveMan 758 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I wouldn't trade for Cooks. Do not necessarily need another wideout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 I agree that Cooks isn't a number one, but I think he can be a strong 2 that takes the top off of a Defense. I think a rebounding Maclin, Cooks, Tyreek in the slot and Kelce is a lethal combo if they can actually get the ball out to take advantage of it. With Dee Ford, I see his role being diminished if Houston is back to 100% and he's mostly ineffective in Tambas role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I agree that Cooks isn't a number one, but I think he can be a strong 2 that takes the top off of a Defense. I think a rebounding Maclin, Cooks, Tyreek in the slot and Kelce is a lethal combo if they can actually get the ball out to take advantage of it. With Dee Ford, I see his role being diminished if Houston is back to 100% and he's mostly ineffective in Tambas role. Why do you want to add Go Route runners to the offense compelled to get the ball out of the quarterback's hands quicker than any other offense in the league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Deep routes are still a thing, even in a WCO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Why do you want to add Go Route runners to the offense compelled to get the ball out of the quarterback's hands quicker than any other offense in the league? Deep routes are still a thing, even in a WCO. My argument is not about whether or not the deep ball should be thrown. My argument is that the Chiefs' offensive line does not pass protect well enough that the Chiefs should be making roster decisions predicated on who can get down the field on a nine-route. Out of qualified quarterbacks, no one got the ball out of his hand after the snap quicker than Alex Smith. Some of that was play-design, but those plays were called to make up for a line that struggled to protect for three full seconds. It's hard to throw 50 yards downfield when your line doesn't give you enough time to anticipate where the safety will commit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 My argument is not about whether or not the deep ball should be thrown. My argument is that the Chiefs' offensive line does not pass protect well enough that the Chiefs should be making roster decisions predicated on who can get down the field on a nine-route. Out of qualified quarterbacks, no one got the ball out of his hand after the snap quicker than Alex Smith. Some of that was play-design, but those plays were called to make up for a line that struggled to protect for three full seconds. It's hard to throw 50 yards downfield when your line doesn't give you enough time to anticipate where the safety will commit.My argument is that the Chiefs line has issues from 2 factors. Bad coaching and a noodle-arm QB that doesn't threaten a D, so they have no qualms about being aggressive. That's why you fix that dilemma and add a deep threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West 6,714 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Hill is probably one of the best "deep threats" in the league. I thought you said Andy was a potential HOF coach? liquidfriend Advanced Member Posted 21 February 2017 - 04:16 AM Not 100% sold on a Hall of Fame caliber coach? Well okay than. OL is priority one for me this offseason. w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Hill is probably one of the best "deep threats" in the league. I thought you said Andy was a potential HOF coach? liquidfriend Advanced Member Posted 21 February 2017 - 04:16 AM Not 100% sold on a Hall of Fame caliber coach? Well okay than. OL is priority one for me this offseason. w I did. Bad coaching = Andy Heck is terrible Nice try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West 6,714 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just searching for clarity...Reid still has plenty to prove. w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Reid and Dorsey both have a lot to prove. Until they can solve the biggest issue the Chiefs have had since a couple years of good Trent Green play, they haven't fulfilled their obligations imo As for OLine coaching, no idea why they haven't flushed Andy Heck yet and made Chung the main coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WichitaZRide 321 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Even with Ehinger out most of the Season, the Oline pass protection was leaps and bounds ahead of what it has been in recent years. Only 10 teams allowed fewer sacks, which puts you in the pop third of the league. The time for deep throws is there....heck, even if it wasn't, Tyreek Hill and Brandon Cooks don't exactly need a lot of time to get deep either. I image DAT would be gone for sure if we got Cooks, but can you freaking imagine seeing those three lined up at the same time? We could just have Tyler Bray throw deep balls every dang play and someone is gonna come up with the ball... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 My argument is that the Chiefs line has issues from 2 factors. Bad coaching and a noodle-arm QB that doesn't threaten a D, so they have no qualms about being aggressive. That's why you fix that dilemma and add a deep threat. Where's the "noodle-arm" nonsense come from? Smith hitting the deep ball has nothing to do with his ball velocity. Smith had to throw the ball quickly because the offensive line as a unit can't hold blocks. Reid was accommodating Fulton and Duvernay-Tardif, not Smith. And how did Smith do in a quick-fire offense?: Only five quarterbacks in the league had a higher completion percentage and higher average yards per pass attempt: Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Ryan Tannehill, Matt Ryan, and Dak Prescott. Quarterbacks like Ryan and Prescott who had considerably more time to throw than Smith and had elite WR1's did in fact get more yardage per attempt and a better completion percentage. The margins there are slim enough that one has to question just what Smith could accomplish if he had the talent around him that guys like Ryan and Prescott have. Less time to read the defense than anyone, but comparable production on a per play basis to other quarterbacks that might be considered among the top of the league, such as Derek Carr, Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, and deep shot extraordinaire Cam Newton. Everyone's got their stats, and this year the go-to-stat for the Smith detractors is 15 touchdowns. Give the quarterback more time to throw the ball, and you give the offense a real chance to strain the defense. But if we're going to go across the board and argue that other quarterbacks outperformed Smith in touchdowns per pass attempt, know that the playing field was not level. The most productive quarterbacks had excellent offensive lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 Where's the "noodle-arm" nonsense come from? Smith hitting the deep ball has nothing to do with his ball velocity. Smith had to throw the ball quickly because the offensive line as a unit can't hold blocks. Reid was accommodating Fulton and Duvernay-Tardif, not Smith. And how did Smith do in a quick-fire offense?: Only five quarterbacks in the league had a higher completion percentage and higher average yards per pass attempt: Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Ryan Tannehill, Matt Ryan, and Dak Prescott. Quarterbacks like Ryan and Prescott who had considerably more time to throw than Smith and had elite WR1's did in fact get more yardage per attempt and a better completion percentage. The margins there are slim enough that one has to question just what Smith could accomplish if he had the talent around him that guys like Ryan and Prescott have. Less time to read the defense than anyone, but comparable production on a per play basis to other quarterbacks that might be considered among the top of the league, such as Derek Carr, Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, and deep shot extraordinaire Cam Newton. Everyone's got their stats, and this year the go-to-stat for the Smith detractors is 15 touchdowns. Give the quarterback more time to throw the ball, and you give the offense a real chance to strain the defense. But if we're going to go across the board and argue that other quarterbacks outperformed Smith in touchdowns per pass attempt, know that the playing field was not level. The most productive quarterbacks had excellent offensive lines. Haha you're trying to argue otherwise. Alex Smith has a noodle arm. His accuracy on deeper routes is allover the place because he has to essentially heave his passes, which doesn't allow him to get proper amount of air underneath the ball. His completion rating is skewed from the amount of short passing he does mixed with pre-determined targets. Good to see we're beating this old drum again though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Haha you're trying to argue otherwise. Alex Smith has a noodle arm. His accuracy on deeper routes is allover the place because he has to essentially heave his passes, which doesn't allow him to get proper amount of air underneath the ball. His completion rating is skewed from the amount of short passing he does mixed with pre-determined targets. Good to see we're beating this old drum again though! How do you get "air" underneath the football by a frozen rope throw? Your explanation defies the logic enforced by physics. A quality deep ball requires the right amount of touch. Arm strength may limit whether you can effectively heave the ball 60 or 70 yards, but the typical deep ball doesn't require extraordinarily high arm strength. Smith's arm strength is sufficient for all common NFL throws. And explain this: If defenses can truly sit on the short ball and the run, why isn't Smith being picked off more often? And why is Smith managing to complete so many passes underneath the secondary? If any quarterback could do what Smith is doing, why are there so many quarterbacks that are ineffective in doing that? And why does Andy Reid basically keep telling you you are a fool for thinking little about Smith? He's going to start Smith again in September. And you'll hate it. But you're not coaching this team, or any other. No amount of stats get you around that reality: All of your artificially weighted benchmarks that you seem to think are so important to playing winning football are irrelevant to the people that get paid to coach in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 What in good lord are you talking about? Who said anything about a frozen rope pass? Lol not all passes are the same there dude Teams focus on keeping the short passes from being huge gains. They all know that Alex often doesn't throw beyond the sticks. Play design and well-designes routes is what get players open. As to your last part, Andy can say what he wants. That's why he hasn't sniffed an AFC Championship appearance in coming up on 5 years. The end result is the only thing relevant in the end, and they're still ringless. I can't muster up hate by this point. It'll be more apathy than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 What in good lord are you talking about? Who said anything about a frozen rope pass? Lol not all passes are the same there dude Teams focus on keeping the short passes from being huge gains. They all know that Alex often doesn't throw beyond the sticks. Play design and well-designes routes is what get players open. As to your last part, Andy can say what he wants. That's why he hasn't sniffed an AFC Championship appearance in coming up on 5 years. The end result is the only thing relevant in the end, and they're still ringless. I can't muster up hate by this point. It'll be more apathy than anything. No, execution of well-designed routes is what gets players open. This is why Tyreek Hill is a gadget player and a nine-route runner. He should progress to be more, but he's not that guy. Maclin is that guy, but he had an off year. Conley is catching up after a busted rookie campaign and a sophomore season that was significantly better. All of these players could contribute more if Smith wasn't having to throw the ball just as the receivers are barely out of their break five yards off of scrimmage. Smith is having to execute plays before they are fully developed. You're glossing over the effect a poor interior line has on overall passing offense. Guards matter. The Chiefs didn't win a Super Bowl, but they've played more post-season games in the last four years than most NFL teams have. If you think that's worth nothing, that's up to you. A lot of owners would gladly trade their head coach for Andy Reid, just like Andy Reid gladly traded to get Alex Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 You're sperging. It should already be implied that routes have to be ran well because that goes for any Offense in the NFL, barring a defender error. I think you're also dismissing that the WCO is predicated a lot on quick passing, regardless of your Offensive Line. Keep building that strawman. It's nice that the Chiefs have gone to a lot of playoff games, but they still have critical flaws keeping them from the ultimate goal. They don't hand out Lombardis for being playoff participants. 32 teams had a crack at Alex Smith a few years ago and 31 teams passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 But hey by your standards, Marvin Lewis should be thrown a parade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 But hey by your standards, Marvin Lewis should be thrown a parade. No. Marvin Lewis scrubbed out. What has his quarterback ever done? Not a single post-season win for any of them. At least Bruce Arians got a post-season win out of Carson Palmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 You're sperging. It should already be implied that routes have to be ran well because that goes for any Offense in the NFL, barring a defender error. I think you're also dismissing that the WCO is predicated a lot on quick passing, regardless of your Offensive Line. Keep building that strawman. It's nice that the Chiefs have gone to a lot of playoff games, but they still have critical flaws keeping them from the ultimate goal. They don't hand out Lombardis for being playoff participants. 32 teams had a crack at Alex Smith a few years ago and 31 teams passed. So the argument used to go, 'every team runs some form of the West Coast Offense'. Then Smith's release has to be faster than that of any other quarterback in the league, and it becomes, 'Smith throws quickly because that's how the offense works'. The team that let Smith go gets to draft second overall this year. Maybe they'll finally get their franchise quarterback. Or maybe they'll continue their descent en route to becoming Browns West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 So the argument used to go, 'every team runs some form of the West Coast Offense'. Then Smith's release has to be faster than that of any other quarterback in the league, and it becomes, 'Smith throws quickly because that's how the offense works'. The team that let Smith go gets to draft second overall this year. Maybe they'll finally get their franchise quarterback. Or maybe they'll continue their descent en route to becoming Browns West. K At any rate, we'll be glad to link you to Jaguarscoalition in no more than 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhataLerror 370 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 K At any rate, we'll be glad to link you to Jaguarscoalition in no more than 2 years. Before you defect to the Patriots? Yeah, whatever. It's too bad that fans have to divide into camps after a game in which the quarterback was hardly the biggest issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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