5-0 to no playoffs

[PhataLerror 370]

This person does not understand what we are saying. He's not used to subtlety, or cannot understand it. I think I understand now that he only understands blunt points.

Is it to your advantage to make this personal? I don't think it is.

[KCSLC2008 606]

This person does not understand what we are saying. He's not used to subtlety, or cannot understand it. I think I understand now that he only understands blunt points.

Who are you talking about? Me or PhataL?

[KCSLC2008 606]

You pretty much just regurgitated what I said about myself, while hinting that I am blaming. I don't know in what other language to be clear that there is a difference between blaming Smith for a loss and stating that Smith was not able to win it when he had the chance to win. If you know, and I keep repeating how I am not blaming, why do you keep using that word and phrase? Is that all you are hanging on? Does it make your argument, as you write it, seem like it makes a point if you just slip "I'm not blaming" in it?

 

Again, I keep telling you that there is a difference between stats and clutch and you keep contradicting yourself. You say Saints was clutch but Colts was not. You keep bringing up words like "complete," like it wasn't complete but it was clutch. You don't need to bring up "perfect/complete/etc." and then say it was clutch.

 

When you have the sample size of only ONE, then that is not enough to hang your hat on. Once is not a pattern. Four or five is a pattern. Being clutch becomes believable when he shows it in a consistent basis. You can't say he's clutch.

 

The closest thing you can say is that he is capable of being clutch. Not until you show it in consistent basis does being able to be anything makes the anything true.

I'm not trying to hinting at anything about you. I'm only talking about myself. I wasn't thinking of this as an argument against you. I think that we might see the game in similar ways, but the difference is between me and others (again, not saying you) is that I don't like to make conclusions about the future. I don't think you'll get me saying that he is or has been clutch, as in repeatedly. Some people enjoy that. I have my thoughts but I don't express them in that way.

 

How is saying that he was clutch in one game but not the other contradictory? I'm talking about the games itself. The games can be different. His ability can show up in one game but not the other. I agree about needing more than one example for a trend, but as I said above, I don't make definitive statements often about the future. I think I might be more likely to make a definitive statement if he didn't have any examples in the playoffs.

 

I have said words like "complete" because I've had people point out to me that the Saints game did not have to come down to those last two possessions if he had played better earlier in the game. So I was saying that by playing well at the end, it was clutch, but not really an example of playing well throughout the game. Same thing can be said about the Colts game in that a lot of the good play was in the first two or three quarters. Unfortunately, Smith didn't get the ball more in front or inbounds to Bowe, even though I think Bowe could have tapped his foot after his good effort to catch the ball.

[dhitter 1,424]

I'll disagree with the take on the Colts inasmuch as Smith had to make the best of a depleted roster. Charles was gone on the first drive, and it's not Smith's fault that Bowe was a lousy WR1 and couldn't keep his feet in bounds on fourth down.

 

It also seemed like Smith was clutch in the Patriots game, but everyone forgets that Smith had little to work with once Maclin was unavailable and Kelce was taken away by defenses. Smith hardly had to do anything against the Texans, and Smith couldn't block for himself in the Steelers game. And if we're going to go back to 2011, Smith was the better quarterback in the NFC Conference Championship. He just didn't get the sheer number of possessions Eli Manning got.

I was going to mention the 4th down pass to Bowe in that Colts game as well. Smith delivered the pass. Any quality WR1 drags that foot and gets the 1st down. We kick a field goal and win...suddenly Alex is a hero. Clutch comeback! Didn't happen...so the narrative shifts to AS couldn't get it done. SMDH.

[PhataLerror 370]

I was going to mention the 4th down pass to Bowe in that Colts game as well. Smith delivered the pass. Any quality WR1 drags that foot and gets the 1st down. We kick a field goal and win...suddenly Alex is a hero. Clutch comeback! Didn't happen...so the narrative shifts to AS couldn't get it done. SMDH.

And the fact that Smith did in fact have plays like this between 2011 and 2016 makes me shake my head when people talk about the "Mahomes Effect". Smith has been doing this for more than half a decade, but because the other end hasn't been consistently doing their job in clutch moments, no one remembers.

 

It's a team game. When other players don't do their job, everyone is affected. Especially the quarterback.

[reesebobby 5,663]

And the fact that Smith did in fact have plays like this between 2011 and 2016 makes me shake my head when people talk about the "Mahomes Effect". Smith has been doing this for more than half a decade, but because the other end hasn't been consistently doing their job in clutch moments, no one remembers.

 

It's a team game. When other players don't do their job, everyone is affected. Especially the quarterback.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Alex Smith has done some nice things. But he has been awfully conservative. And he has had some pocket issues. We have benefitted from his not making critical mistakes generally, but we have died from it occasionally too.

[sith13 1,746]

I was going to mention the 4th down pass to Bowe in that Colts game as well. Smith delivered the pass. Any quality WR1 drags that foot and gets the 1st down. We kick a field goal and win...suddenly Alex is a hero. Clutch comeback! Didn't happen...so the narrative shifts to AS couldn't get it done. SMDH.

 

I don't think it was a bad throw by Smith but it sure was a terrible play. Bowe was just inches away from the sideline even before the catch so any contact would throw him out of bounds which was what happened. Rather than dragging his foot in that situation Bowe should have about a yard or at least half a yard more cushion from the sideline. 

 

Personally my frustration in that game was the lack of ball possession in the 2nd half. They kept scoring and our offense simply provided 3 & outs without taking any time off the clock in most cases. Even though defense provided some nice starting positions and turnover in the first half the second half meltdown was probably the worst defensive performance I've seen in a while. 

[reesebobby 5,663]

I don't think it was a bad throw by Smith but it sure was a terrible play. Bowe was just inches away from the sideline even before the catch so any contact would throw him out of bounds which was what happened. Rather than dragging his foot in that situation Bowe should have about a yard or at least half a yard more cushion from the sideline. 

 

Personally my frustration in that game was the lack of ball possession in the 2nd half. They kept scoring and our offense simply provided 3 & outs without taking any time off the clock in most cases. Even though defense provided some nice starting positions and turnover in the first half the second half meltdown was probably the worst defensive performance I've seen in a while.

One of my big frustrations with the offense the past few years is the reliance of YAC on third downs. When we get third and seven, we inevitably throw a 3 yard pass or a screen. Run a farging 10 yard route and throw it beyond the sticks. Drives me nuts.

[KCSLC2008 606]

One of my big frustrations with the offense the past few years is the reliance of YAC on third downs. When we get third and seven, we inevitably throw a 3 yard pass or a screen. Run a farging 10 yard route and throw it beyond the sticks. Drives me nuts.

Other than the Steelers game, I haven't seen that much this season. We were 8/15 or something for 3rd downs after starting 3-7 in the Steelers game, I think. I had to box score watch that game and so I remember looking at the status of third down in the middle.

[reesebobby 5,663]

Other than the Steelers game, I haven't seen that much this season. We were 8/15 or something for 3rd downs after starting 3-7 in the Steelers game, I think. I had to box score watch that game and so I remember looking at the status of third down in the middle.

I agree. This year has been far better.

[PhataLerror 370]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Alex Smith has done some nice things. But he has been awfully conservative. And he has had some pocket issues. We have benefitted from his not making critical mistakes generally, but we have died from it occasionally too.

The "conservative" label derived from statistical accumulations that were the result of play-calling and game flow coinciding with limited talent in the passing game. The "pocket issues" have persistently been offensive line issues. When teams have invested in Smith's supporting cast, the return on investment has been quite generous (as long as said supporting cast has remained healthy, which has been an issue in literally every one of Smith's playoff losses).

[PhataLerror 370]

One of my big frustrations with the offense the past few years is the reliance of YAC on third downs. When we get third and seven, we inevitably throw a 3 yard pass or a screen. Run a farging 10 yard route and throw it beyond the sticks. Drives me nuts.

Didn't the Chiefs do this with Conley this year? And with Maclin in 2015 (when he was healthy)? And has Smith played with any other decent wide receiver of the stick-moving variety? It's hard to convert on long third downs when your receivers can't separate and your offensive linemen can't block. It's also hard to throw past the sticks when your head coach is calling screen plays; that had nothing to do with Smith.

[reesebobby 5,663]

Didn't the Chiefs do this with Conley this year? And with Maclin in 2015 (when he was healthy)? And has Smith played with any other decent wide receiver of the stick-moving variety? It's hard to convert on long third downs when your receivers can't separate and your offensive linemen can't block. It's also hard to throw past the sticks when your head coach is calling screen plays; that had nothing to do with Smith.

Maybe you misread. I didn't say one of my frustrations with Smith, I said one of my big frustrations with the offense. And you don't have to have separation to run a 10 yard button hook. I'm not talking about running fly routes or skinny posts.

[PhataLerror 370]

Maybe you misread. I didn't say one of my frustrations with Smith, I said one of my big frustrations with the offense. And you don't have to have separation to run a 10 yard button hook. I'm not talking about running fly routes or skinny posts.

You went from talking about Smith's 'conservatism' to the Chiefs' conservatism. I missed the transition.

 

As for third-down route concepts, as a receiver you'd better be able to sell a hook route, and if you can't get open on flies or skinny posts, you're not going to be able to sell the fastball route on third down; it will almost certainly end up being jumped, and possibly for a pick-six. It's a personnel issue far more than it's a coaching issue: Since Smith arrived, the Chiefs have persistently lacked receivers with an adequate combination of route running smarts, quickness, and hands. The few they have had have never played a full season.

[reesebobby 5,663]

You'd better be able to sell a hook route, and if you can't get open on flies or skinny posts, you're not going to be able to sell the fastball route. It's a personnel issue far more than it's a coaching issue.

They are NFL receivers, not high schoolers. Maclin, Hill, Kelce, Charles, Conley, Bowe...they are capable of sitting down on a 10 yard hook.

[soonerborn77 276]

I agree. This year has been far better.

 

hopefully see it more when we get Morse and LDT back, they're probably scared to do a 5 step drop with all backups in the interior of the line

[Mloe68 1,521]

I was going to mention the 4th down pass to Bowe in that Colts game as well. Smith delivered the pass. Any quality WR1 drags that foot and gets the 1st down. We kick a field goal and win...suddenly Alex is a hero. Clutch comeback! Didn't happen...so the narrative shifts to AS couldn't get it done. SMDH.

Actually Bowe also ran the wrong route. He was supposed to adjust route in or out based on coverage of CB and was way to close to the sideline. Also the play before Andy had a great play call to McCluster on a crossing route. Go back and look and see how well set up it was and it would have easily gotten us into FG range, but McCluster got caught from behind. Even the defensive scheme by Sutton wasn't executed like it was supposed to in the 4th quarter. When you are in a two deep zone and still give up a big play over the top, its 100 percent on the secondary. That game was just the perfect storm of bad in the end. Alex had an incredible game thought thats good enough to win 99.9 percent of the time. 

[PhataLerror 370]

They are NFL receivers, not high schoolers. Maclin, Hill, Kelce, Charles, Conley, Bowe...they are capable of sitting down on a 10 yard hook.

Are we talking about these receivers when they were at their peak, or are we talking about these receivers as they actually were with the Chiefs? Maclin showed that for a few games, but had health issues. Conley has been that guy, but he's gone for the year. Hill is comparatively tiny and doesn't fit this role, and Kelce isn't a good fit for this role for the opposite reason. Bowe couldn't hang on with the Browns when he left Kansas City. And Charles? Did he ever run a hook route?

 

There are a lot of "NFL Receivers" that simply cannot execute much of the commonly accepted route tree effectively.

[PhataLerror 370]

Actually Bowe also ran the wrong route. He was supposed to adjust route in or out based on coverage of CB and was way to close to the sideline. Also the play before Andy had a great play call to McCluster on a crossing route. Go back and look and see how well set up it was and it would have easily gotten us into FG range, but McCluster got caught from behind. Even the defensive scheme by Sutton wasn't executed like it was supposed to in the 4th quarter. When you are in a two deep zone and still give up a big play over the top, its 100 percent on the secondary. That game was just the perfect storm of bad in the end. Alex had an incredible game thought thats good enough to win 99.9 percent of the time. 

During the Super Bowl era, 98.3% to be exact. Which is practically like 99.9%.

[reesebobby 5,663]

Are we talking about these receivers when they were at their peak, or are we talking about these receivers as they actually were with the Chiefs? Maclin showed that for a few games, but had health issues. Conley has been that guy, but he's gone for the year. Hill is comparatively tiny and doesn't fit this role, and Kelce isn't a good fit for this role for the opposite reason. Bowe couldn't hang on with the Browns when he left Kansas City. And Charles? Did he ever run a hook route?

 

There are a lot of "NFL Receivers" that simply cannot execute much of the commonly accepted route tree effectively.

If you are saying we do not have the talent on offense to run a 10 yard hook, then I would suggest to you that we should not be in the NFL. You run down the field and stop. It is a timing route wherein the quarterback hits you as you turn around. People with as little physical ability as Steve Largent have been doing it for a long time. It's not as difficult as you are trying to make it.

[PhataLerror 370]

If you are saying we do not have the talent on offense to run a 10 yard hook, then I would suggest to you that we should not be in the NFL. You run down the field and stop. It is a timing route wherein the quarterback hits you as you turn around. People with as little physical ability as Steve Largent have been doing it for a long time. It's not as difficult as you are trying to make it.

Some of the league's most famous players might not have been physical freaks, but generally the ones that weren't made up the difference with savvy and technique. I'm afraid that you grossly discredit the coaches in this league. They chart everything in the NFL, and the league knows both that there are quarterbacks whose bread-and-butter are hook routes (think Kaepernick), and receivers whose bread-and-butter are nine-routes (think Torrey Smith). Eventually, the one-dimensional players, no matter how talented, are marginalized: Game planning takes away what they do well, and there's nothing behind that first sample of their limited skill set.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is this: Your receivers run routes in a vacuum. You can find them annually at the combine; they rank well in the 40-yard dash, vertical jump, and cone drill. They come into the league with much fanfare, but they fizzle out when they never learn the nuances of their position. Why? Because receivers run routes against well-coordinated defenses. Or the Chiefs.

[PAChiefsFan79 136]

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2017/10/25/16535446/busting-4-myths-about-the-kansas-city-chiefs-defense-its-not-all-bob-sutton

 

Just wanted to throw this in here since the defense and Sutton are heavily criticized right now. Worth the read in my opinion.

[DieHard 2,061]

That’s good article. I was searching for a place to find those kind of stats, but couldn’t find it. So hard to separate what you thought you saw from what you saw. It is for me anyway. I thought I was losing my mind because I didn’t Renner hardly any 3 man rush plays.

[reesebobby 5,663]

Some of the league's most famous players might not have been physical freaks, but generally the ones that weren't made up the difference with savvy and technique. I'm afraid that you grossly discredit the coaches in this league. They chart everything in the NFL, and the league knows both that there are quarterbacks whose bread-and-butter are hook routes (think Kaepernick), and receivers whose bread-and-butter are nine-routes (think Torrey Smith). Eventually, the one-dimensional players, no matter how talented, are marginalized: Game planning takes away what they do well, and there's nothing behind that first sample of their limited skill set.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is this: Your receivers run routes in a vacuum. You can find them annually at the combine; they rank well in the 40-yard dash, vertical jump, and cone drill. They come into the league with much fanfare, but they fizzle out when they never learn the nuances of their position. Why? Because receivers run routes against well-coordinated defenses. Or the Chiefs.

 

I get that you like Smith.  I like him too.  But to say that we can't run a 7 yard to 10 yard route is being silly. It makes Smith apologists look bad.  We are better than that.  I'm afraid that you grossly discredit the coaches on the chiefs team if you think they can't teach Maclin to run a 10 yard hook.  It's not impossible, I promise. 

[PhataLerror 370]

I get that you like Smith.  I like him too.  But to say that we can't run a 7 yard to 10 yard route is being silly. It makes Smith apologists look bad.  We are better than that.  I'm afraid that you grossly discredit the coaches on the chiefs team if you think they can't teach Maclin to run a 10 yard hook.  It's not impossible, I promise. 

The thing is that the Chiefs were converting on third down this year. Then Conley went out. Now it's a struggle. The guy was underrated. Quarterbacks need players to throw to.

 

I was down on the Maclin release, but then I saw Conley doing many of the most essential things Maclin was doing, and I was content. Then Conley went down, and I knew before the end of the Texans game that this was going to be an issue for the rest of the year. Perhaps you think I'm being severe on my expectations of wide receivers, but a lot of them do indeed bust out of the league, some without hardly a whimper. If it was really that easy, every team would be converting third downs with comeback routes, and NFL over/unders would consistently top 80 points.