Sutton

[Chiefswinitall 60]

1 hour ago, Palangi said:

I think a pass rusher is needed next year.  Speaks is an interior rusher. He can be used as an edge guy in run downs then move inside on pass downs.  

 

The league hates Houston.  He is held more than anyone and never gets calls.  Chris Jones is a close second however. 

 

Sutton is still droping our best pass rushers (Houston and Ford)  into coverage way too often. 

The problem with picking another pass rusher is that we picked so many already.   

The problem is also no one know who's pulling the strings on talent assessment.  Is it Sutton?   He could be pressuring Veach to get big OLB but that might be a mistake for this system.

Why do we need 300lb OLBers?   Tanoh should be contributing but I don't see anything.   

Rinse Repeat.    We are trading speed for size.   That might be a mistake.   I am no expert on 3-4 defense but speed is important.

[sith13 1,746]

In terms of talent to come in via the draft I think we are set at pass rushers. However we need to be able to develop them. I think we have a major problem in that area as pretty much anyone that comes in seem to stay at their rookie level. Ford is exactly the same as his rookie self in his 5th year, KPass showed some promise but still not doing anything better than last year, Speaks was supposed to be a tremendous pick yet barely sees the field, etc. It's a matter of coaching in our case. 

[Handswarmer 645]

It is fortunate that Pitt's secondary and LB corp was worse than Sutton's defense. Mahomes will have to throw 50 td passes to make up for that shit show. And he can do it.

[Lamardirts 2,115]

5 hours ago, sith13 said:

In terms of talent to come in via the draft I think we are set at pass rushers. However we need to be able to develop them. I think we have a major problem in that area as pretty much anyone that comes in seem to stay at their rookie level. Ford is exactly the same as his rookie self in his 5th year, KPass showed some promise but still not doing anything better than last year, Speaks was supposed to be a tremendous pick yet barely sees the field, etc. It's a matter of coaching in our case. 

Agreed

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

My only question at this point is whether our new DC will run a 43 or 34. I have zero doubt in my mind we will be getting one. Sutton is a lousy DC. 6 years is enough evidence. The game has passed him by. 

Sucks that we will have to sit through another 14 games of this defense but keeping him around will be indefensible after the season. We are giving up 500 yards per game.

[dksww 484]

Why wait?  Fire the clown now.  It's not that hard for the assistant to take over and do the complete opposite of what Sutton does to see improvement.  Every single call he makes is wrong.  All anyone has to do is go to the tape and do the exact opposite.

I just don't understand how in a game where you're up 3 touchdowns in the first quarter do you think it's a good idea not to rush the quarterback?

The Chiefs should've had 4-5 sacks yesterday and won the game something like 49-20.

So, in talking with a friend of mine back in KC last, one thing that did occur to us is that maybe even Reid and Veach didn't expect this kind of success on offense, especially with the difficulty of the first 2 games.  Now that offensive juggernaut has emerged, maybe there will be immediate pressure on Sutton each week as opposed to letting him have one last season while the Chiefs bring Mahomes along and try to build up for 2019.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

1 hour ago, dksww said:

Why wait?  Fire the clown now.  It's not that hard for the assistant to take over and do the complete opposite of what Sutton does to see improvement.  Every single call he makes is wrong.  All anyone has to do is go to the tape and do the exact opposite.

I just don't understand how in a game where you're up 3 touchdowns in the first quarter do you think it's a good idea not to rush the quarterback?

The Chiefs should've had 4-5 sacks yesterday and won the game something like 49-20.

So, in talking with a friend of mine back in KC last, one thing that did occur to us is that maybe even Reid and Veach didn't expect this kind of success on offense, especially with the difficulty of the first 2 games.  Now that offensive juggernaut has emerged, maybe there will be immediate pressure on Sutton each week as opposed to letting him have one last season while the Chiefs bring Mahomes along and try to build up for 2019.

Several reasons...

1. Who on this staff is ready to take over? Our D line coach is frickin Britt Reid. Our LB coaches are in their first years at their respective positions. Our DB coach is fucking 137 years old.

2. We are a legit playoff contender. Those midseason firings dont usually happen on teams in first place.

3. Reid likes the guy and is so involved in the offense he lets Sutton run the show on D. If he fired him mid season it would be a rudderless ship. Emmit Thomas has been a DC before, but the dude was alive when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

If we get a new DC, we will be getting a whole new staff on that side of the ball. And it needs to be done. This unit is a pathetic joke that will ultimately AGAIN cost us a chance at a ring. Our offense is as good as any in the league, so its not hard to see what needs to be fixed.

[dksww 484]

21 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

Several reasons...

1. Who on this staff is ready to take over? Our D line coach is frickin Britt Reid. Our LB coaches are in their first years at their respective positions. Our DB coach is fucking 137 years old.

2. We are a legit playoff contender. Those midseason firings dont usually happen on teams in first place.

3. Reid likes the guy and is so involved in the offense he lets Sutton run the show on D. If he fired him mid season it would be a rudderless ship. Emmit Thomas has been a DC before, but the dude was alive when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

If we get a new DC, we will be getting a whole new staff on that side of the ball. And it needs to be done. This unit is a pathetic joke that will ultimately AGAIN cost us a chance at a ring. Our offense is as good as any in the league, so its not hard to see what needs to be fixed.

I understand those things, all I'm asking is couldn't a blind monkey come in and calls plays the exact opposite way Sutton is?

95% of his calls do not work.  All anyone has to do is call the opposite plays and by pure luck 30% of those would work, wouldn't they?

[Calichief 3,017]

7 minutes ago, dksww said:

I understand those things, all I'm asking is couldn't a blind monkey come in and calls plays the exact opposite way Sutton is?

95% of his calls do not work.  All anyone has to do is call the opposite plays and by pure luck 30% of those would work, wouldn't they?

Sutton isn’t going anywhere unfortunately. Reid endorsed him after the game lol! Said he made great adjustments.

even the tv guys were commenting that he was just dropping everyone. Bland stand pass rush etc. 

the scheme ISNT WORKING

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

6 minutes ago, Calichief said:

even the tv guys were commenting that he was just dropping everyone.

I believe they said that when they were up by 12 with 5 minutes left in the game. Teams that aren't getting a heavy pass rush tend to go prevent a lot more than teams with a great pass rush. 

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

22 hours ago, dksww said:

I understand those things, all I'm asking is couldn't a blind monkey come in and calls plays the exact opposite way Sutton is?

95% of his calls do not work.  All anyone has to do is call the opposite plays and by pure luck 30% of those would work, wouldn't they?

Even his blitzes are poorly designed. They rarely work either. Probably has about 4. His playsheet is probably his entire defensive playbook and his med list/emergency contacts for when he gets lost too.

[Dan4pres 125]

Big picture we are 2-0 against teams nobody had us beating before the season started. Both games we were never behind in and were never in serious jeopardy of losing. Oh yeah and they were ON THE ROAD! Defense is a work in progress and there was improvement this week despite the gaudy yards given up. If we had stopped Big Ben on 4th down there, I'm sure people would be talking differently today. We really had one terrible quarter on defense. Watts and O'Daniel need playing time immediately, particularly on passing downs. If we give up 30+ points to San Fran then I'm going to start becoming concerned. Heck,  I don't think we'll score less than 40 until we play Jax.

[Lamardirts 2,115]

16 minutes ago, Dan4pres said:

Big picture we are 2-0 against teams nobody had us beating before the season started. Both games we were never behind in and were never in serious jeopardy of losing. Oh yeah and they were ON THE ROAD! Defense is a work in progress and there was improvement this week despite the gaudy yards given up. If we had stopped Big Ben on 4th down there, I'm sure people would be talking differently today. We really had one terrible quarter on defense. Watts and O'Daniel need playing time immediately, particularly on passing downs. If we give up 30+ points to San Fran then I'm going to start becoming concerned. Heck,  I don't think we'll score less than 40 until we play Jax.

Yeah I agree.  If we are this bad on D then we should giving the youngsters a chance to play.  Watts can not be worse than Murray.   I'm just confused.  I remember a few years back the Giants ran a personnel grouping of like 4 passrushers with 1 defensive lineman and just wreaked havoc.   I know Kpass and Speaks aren't amazing but they are both bigger rush linebackers so could we not put all 4 of our pass rushers on the field with Chris Jones when we know they are passing?  I understand it leaves us vulnerable vs the run but isn't that kinda what we want teams who are down doing?  Running the ball and burning up the clock?    What I saw yesterday was 3 and 4 man rushes that gave Big Ben all day to pass and regardless of how bad or good a secondary, no secondary can cover for that long.   It just feels counterproductive to drop back so many when our weakest link on D is the secondary.    When we did send multiple guys (Not those pathetic delayed blitzes) it at least forced Ben to throw quickly which negates those big plays down the field.   Like you said though we are 2-0 and that is awesome!   Go Chiefs!

[dksww 484]

that's the thing, the Chiefs aren't playing the guys they drafted this year and KPass still isn't being put out there very often.  WTF is going on?  Play these guys! 

Here's the defensive snap counts from yesterday, what is this bullshit on defense? 

 

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

54 minutes ago, dksww said:

that's the thing, the Chiefs aren't playing the guys they drafted this year and KPass still isn't being put out there very often.  WTF is going on?  Play these guys! 

Here's the defensive snap counts from yesterday, what is this bullshit on defense? 

 

 

I'm not a DC nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but could it be, as bad as people think the starters are, the backups could be worse. So why put an even worse version on the field? 

What I mean by worse isn't that they royally suck ass they just aren't there yet and the Chiefs are playing the players who give the team the best chance for success.

Was Brock Osweiler really better than Payton Manning? Hell no, even at Manning's worst. That's why they played Manning in the SB. Osweiler was healthy and Manning was shitty but I don't think any of you would have swapped them out in the SB.

None of us know for sure, it's all speculation on why this player is getting more snaps and this one isn't.

[dksww 484]

4 minutes ago, Chiefsfan1963 said:

I'm not a DC nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but could it be, as bad as people think the starters are, the backups could be worse. So why put an even worse version on the field? 

What I mean by worse isn't that they royally suck ass they just aren't there yet and the Chiefs are playing the players who give the team the best chance for success.

Was Brock Osweiler really better than Payton Manning? Hell no, even at Manning's worst. That's why they played Manning in the SB. Osweiler was healthy and Manning was shitty but I don't think any of you would have swapped them out in the SB.

None of us know for sure, it's all speculation on why this player is getting more snaps and this one isn't.

You make a good point but my gripe is you drafted these guys because you didn't have anyone else that could get the job done.  Now, they're not getting on the field.  Even if it's just as bad or worse, which I doubt it would be, they're still gaining experience and getting a chance to get better.

Before I go too nuts with this, I do realize that it's only been the 2nd game and the Chiefs take their time with rookies.  Hell, it took them 6 games to finally let Chris Jones and Tyreek Hill on the field for more than a handful of snaps in 2016 when they were rookies. 

[Chiefsfan1963 1,101]

4 minutes ago, dksww said:

You make a good point but my gripe is you drafted these guys because you didn't have anyone else that could get the job done.  Now, they're not getting on the field.  Even if it's just as bad or worse, which I doubt it would be, they're still gaining experience and getting a chance to get better.

Before I go too nuts with this, I do realize that it's only been the 2nd game and the Chiefs take their time with rookies.  Hell, it took them 6 games to finally let Chris Jones and Tyreek Hill on the field for more than a handful of snaps in 2016 when they were rookies. 

Understand, how long did it take to get Mahomes on the field. Personally I think letting him learn first was the right decision. Maybe the new breed needs to be brought along vs thrown into the deep end. Don't agree with the coddling method but if it worked for Mahomes maybe there is something to say about.

[kkuenn 3,608]

7 minutes ago, dksww said:

You make a good point but my gripe is you drafted these guys because you didn't have anyone else that could get the job done.  Now, they're not getting on the field.  Even if it's just as bad or worse, which I doubt it would be, they're still gaining experience and getting a chance to get better.

Before I go too nuts with this, I do realize that it's only been the 2nd game and the Chiefs take their time with rookies.  Hell, it took them 6 games to finally let Chris Jones and Tyreek Hill on the field for more than a handful of snaps in 2016 when they were rookies. 

They may have drafted to develop as we usually do. It takes time to do so.

[Chiefswinitall 60]

Trent Green mentioned the D today and said Sutton's MO is letting other teams have yardage but just keep them out of  endzone.

So anyone here mentioning stats or rankings is fucked.      Ok , lets use TD's by opponents as indicator.  Still doesn't look good. Oh well.

[Burpo The Mad Clown 5,559]

On 9/16/2018 at 3:41 PM, oldtimer said:

I have to wonder if he was an assistant under G-Rob

 

 this is Vermiel-ball all over again

G-Rob's defenses were brilliant on paper. That must be why other coaches spoke of him so highly. Problem was no one could seem to make it happen on the field. Way too complicated and demanded too much of the players, who were confused at times and hesitated.

Sutton is just bewildering. No pretense of G-Rob cleverness. Just bad.

[Lamardirts 2,115]

8 hours ago, Chiefsfan1963 said:

I'm not a DC nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but could it be, as bad as people think the starters are, the backups could be worse. So why put an even worse version on the field? 

What I mean by worse isn't that they royally suck ass they just aren't there yet and the Chiefs are playing the players who give the team the best chance for success.

Was Brock Osweiler really better than Payton Manning? Hell no, even at Manning's worst. That's why they played Manning in the SB. Osweiler was healthy and Manning was shitty but I don't think any of you would have swapped them out in the SB.

None of us know for sure, it's all speculation on why this player is getting more snaps and this one isn't.

I understand that but your comparing an NFL QB which is far more complicated (especially in Andy Reids system) to a DB.   Also you helped hand pick these dudes and they aren't developing and in some cases they are getting worse.   I do agree that there is a possibility they are a good bit worse than those starters but when your weakest link on D is playing the most snaps on D then there are major issues on D.   Like why did we burn picks on pass rushers who aren't seeing the field when the glaring hole on this team is the secondary.....something we knew before the draft last year.    Also Mahomes is a first round pick and Eric Murray is a 4th rounder converted to S.  Orlando Scandrick is a last minute pick up off the street.   We gave up 37 points not 17.   You literally can't do a whole lot worse than that and we gave up a ton of yardage.   But if what your saying is true and it could very well be true then you should be on the hot seat for not developing replacements in your scheme over the past 6 years you've been here.   I guarantee you we spend more money on D than the Pats do and on paper we have more talent but they are better year in and year out.   Their scheme is better, they are better coached and they develop their players.   

I know we get into disagreements rather frequently but I'm glad not everyone thinks like me on this board.  And I enjoy your thoughtful banter and perspective.  

[sith13 1,746]

10 hours ago, Chiefsfan1963 said:

I'm not a DC nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but could it be, as bad as people think the starters are, the backups could be worse. So why put an even worse version on the field? 

What I mean by worse isn't that they royally suck ass they just aren't there yet and the Chiefs are playing the players who give the team the best chance for success.

Was Brock Osweiler really better than Payton Manning? Hell no, even at Manning's worst. That's why they played Manning in the SB. Osweiler was healthy and Manning was shitty but I don't think any of you would have swapped them out in the SB.

None of us know for sure, it's all speculation on why this player is getting more snaps and this one isn't.

Coaches can't always assess the guys correctly. Some players that are questionable in practice may actually show a lot of pulse on the field. If things aren't going well it generally helps to shake things around. When given the chance some youngsters actually did well (like Watts or Smith) yet we saw very little of them in favor of guys that played more and did a lot worse. 

[soonerborn77 276]

18 hours ago, dksww said:

that's the thing, the Chiefs aren't playing the guys they drafted this year and KPass still isn't being put out there very often.  WTF is going on?  Play these guys! 

Here's the defensive snap counts from yesterday, what is this bullshit on defense? 

 

 

If we break this down we have a backup safety playing full time and our starting ILB got a stinger and only played about 1/3 of the snaps.  We had our 3rd CB playing a ton but that is also because Big Ben threw the ball 189 times.  Of course with our offense and our ability to put up points, we are going to see this a lot which is why I'm hoping EB coming back will at least help the over the top defense...

[Handswarmer 645]

14 hours ago, Chiefswinitall said:

Trent Green mentioned the D today and said Sutton's MO is letting other teams have yardage but just keep them out of  endzone.

So anyone here mentioning stats or rankings is fucked.      Ok , lets use TD's by opponents as indicator.  Still doesn't look good. Oh well.

Cheezus- thats the GRob defense all over again....

[sith13 1,746]

14 hours ago, Chiefswinitall said:

Trent Green mentioned the D today and said Sutton's MO is letting other teams have yardage but just keep them out of  endzone.

So anyone here mentioning stats or rankings is fucked.      Ok , lets use TD's by opponents as indicator.  Still doesn't look good. Oh well.

Well 3 TDs in a single quarter of football isn't really keeping offenses out of the endzone. We are simply winning shootouts. They are getting the yards because they have a long way to go to score but eventually they get there and the average scoring drive doesn't take that long either.