Defense

[Mloe68 1,521]

7 minutes ago, artsy said:

I agree, and who says that Berry will be as good as 2016 Berry when he returns??

Im not as quick to write Berry off as others because history has proven he can do it. But you are correct the older you get the harder it is and there are no guarantees at all. 

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

19 hours ago, SEMO said:

Absolute atrocity.  Score 40 and lose?  Not since the days of GRob.

 

I’m not too upset about it.  We got the loss out of the way.  That pressure is off.  Mahomes was rattled for a half.  Overcame it and balled us to what should have been a win.

 

Sidenote:  I don’t blame Speaks one bit for letting go.  These bullshit roughing penalties have ruined the game.

Agree completely.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

18 hours ago, DefensiveMan said:

Hitchens was pretty disappointing. I don't think he can play in this scheme. Lost.

Still....better than last year.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

18 hours ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

I just can’t believe how bad our linebackers are playing considering our fatty lineman have been doing quite well

I keep reading about how terrible they are, but no one acknowledges that the safeties are so bad that our LB's have to drop into coverage all the time or wait a half second longer to see what the play is going to be.  That can certainly take the edge off of their performance against the run.  Am I crazy, or does that make sense?

[kkuenn 3,597]

1 hour ago, Mloe68 said:

Houston was healthy and played in every game last year. Also Berry was the best safety in football in 2016. At this point though the contracts and CAP hits for these guys to not play is hurting the defense more than anything Bob Sutton does. We need Veach to get away from Dorsey's vision of the defense. 

He has played 3 full 16 game seasons and last one was 2014. He played in 15 last year but I am sure if not for the last meaningless game he would have played 16.  My point was since he signed the contract he has not been worth it for the money paid is all. If he stays out any meaningful time this year too. 36 games not including this year since signing it out of possible 64 not including playoffs where we need him especially. Almost 2 full seasons.

[kkuenn 3,597]

18 minutes ago, Fmbl2187 said:

I keep reading about how terrible they are, but no one acknowledges that the safeties are so bad that our LB's have to drop into coverage all the time or wait a half second longer to see what the play is going to be.  That can certainly take the edge off of their performance against the run.  Am I crazy, or does that make sense?

No, not crazy. They are playing react defense instead of proactive one. Sutton gladly gives up yards but wants to keep the long plays and scoring plays to a minimum. Thing is, it is failing big time. Might as well blitz more and let LBs fill the gaps etc

[Mloe68 1,521]

35 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

He has played 3 full 16 game seasons and last one was 2014. He played in 15 last year but I am sure if not for the last meaningless game he would have played 16.  My point was since he signed the contract he has not been worth it for the money paid is all. If he stays out any meaningful time this year too. 36 games not including this year since signing it out of possible 64 not including playoffs where we need him especially. Almost 2 full seasons.

Houston only missed the game last year because Andy benched all the starters.  I agree the lack of availability of both has been very damaging to the defense because they take up so much CAP room.  And you could add Hali and DJ to that last year.  

 

[Mloe68 1,521]

26 minutes ago, kkuenn said:

No, not crazy. They are playing react defense instead of proactive one. Sutton gladly gives up yards but wants to keep the long plays and scoring plays to a minimum. Thing is, it is failing big time. Might as well blitz more and let LBs fill the gaps etc

Last year the last month of the season Sutton said he simplified defense and let them basically run downhill and it worked well until we lost Chris Jones.  I think he needs to do similar right now and hopefully that will get Hitchens going. 

v

[DefensiveMan 758]

4 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

Last year the last month of the season Sutton said he simplified defense and let them basically run downhill and it worked well until we lost Chris Jones.  I think he needs to do similar right now and hopefully that will get Hitchens going. 

v

His style of keep everything in front of you make the tackle scheme doesn't fit our Inside Backers. Those two need to penetrate running holes and obliterate ball-carriers. We've seen glimpses.

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

41 minutes ago, Mloe68 said:

Last year the last month of the season Sutton said he simplified defense and let them basically run downhill and it worked well until we lost Chris Jones.  I think he needs to do similar right now and hopefully that will get Hitchens going. 

v

Hitchens and Ragland both will prove to be very, very good, once the safety situation is repaired.  I am sure of it.  Hitchens flies in and hits like a freight train when he can just react.  Ragland is going to keep getting better like that, also.  We need to fix the safeties and give those guys a chance. They are young and talented and aggressive.

[Mloe68 1,521]

8 minutes ago, Fmbl2187 said:

Hitchens and Ragland both will prove to be very, very good, once the safety situation is repaired.  I am sure of it.  Hitchens flies in and hits like a freight train when he can just react.  Ragland is going to keep getting better like that, also.  We need to fix the safeties and give those guys a chance. They are young and talented and aggressive.

That’s a good take. And as such Veach has to get something done to help make that happen. 

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

2 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

I keep reading about how terrible they are, but no one acknowledges that the safeties are so bad that our LB's have to drop into coverage all the time or wait a half second longer to see what the play is going to be.  That can certainly take the edge off of their performance against the run.  Am I crazy, or does that make sense?

Its not that your point doesn’t make sense its that our two safeties that were scheduled to start are out injured.

our two inside linebackers are a high priced free agent in hitchens and a player who was traded for and thought to be an ascending talent in ragland.

Also hitchens are ragland are supposedly run thumpers yet they aren’t capable of shedding a block or making a 1 on 1 tackle in the hole right now.

so you are saying they have to help in the pass game but they aren’t capable of that either so i dont buy that as an excuse 

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

1 hour ago, Fmbl2187 said:

Hitchens and Ragland both will prove to be very, very good, once the safety situation is repaired.  I am sure of it.  Hitchens flies in and hits like a freight train when he can just react.  Ragland is going to keep getting better like that, also.  We need to fix the safeties and give those guys a chance. They are young and talented and aggressive.

I guess this is the main point we differ on.

i dont feel that ragland and hitchens have the skill set to improve no matter who is playing safety.I would rather give nieman and dorian odaniel/ someone from arizona after a trade a chance to play.

on the other hand there is hope that berry can return and improve the secondary and i think we have something in jordan lucas.

[Lamardirts 2,114]

4 hours ago, Fmbl2187 said:

Still....better than last year.

Not statistically, so no not better than last year.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

1 hour ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

I guess this is the main point we differ on.

i dont feel that ragland and hitchens have the skill set to improve no matter who is playing safety.I would rather give nieman and dorian odaniel/ someone from arizona after a trade a chance to play.

on the other hand there is hope that berry can return and improve the secondary and i think we have something in jordan lucas.

Hitchens has already played at a much higher level than this. Hes not a rookie. Hes started 54 NFL games. And he is 26. So its not like his best days are behind him. They didnt give him a big contract based on lack of film. 

[Lamardirts 2,114]

1 hour ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

Hitchens has already played at a much higher level than this. Hes not a rookie. Hes started 54 NFL games. And he is 26. So its not like his best days are behind him. They didnt give him a big contract based on lack of film. 

When they attack down hill they look fine when we sit back and react we get washed out.   I do agree that a simpler scheme might be good until we can get some of our big guns back.

[CranjisMcbasketball 780]

1 hour ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

Hitchens has already played at a much higher level than this. Hes not a rookie. Hes started 54 NFL games. And he is 26. So its not like his best days are behind him. They didnt give him a big contract based on lack of film. 

I don’t see any evidence dallas defense notices his departure, nor did i see any dallas fans care he left

[Fmbl2187 2,279]

2 hours ago, Lamardirts said:

Not statistically, so no not better than last year.

They look like they are better, except for the horrible tackling which keeps getting better slowly.  I suspect that the reason they don't statistically, is because we are scoring fast and keeping the defense on the field too long.  Teams like the Patriots have learned to try to control the clock more and more to make our defense even more tired.  Also, we are getting big leads in four of the games that allow us to play prevent and make them use up the clock.  That prevent approach has killed us statistically while we allow opponents to keep getting plays that keep the clock running. So, I would not place too much emphasis on statistics. We are getting more key 3rd down stops this year, it seems.  I know it is unpopular on this forum to say anything nice about the D, but these things are true.  A high powered offense results in poor statistics for those reasons.  Add in the very disappointing absence of Berry, which we did not know would happen during the draft, and well...this is what happens. Veatch will fix the D in the draft, and it will keep getting better with experience alone with new guys from the last draft.  Many of us here on the forum have acknowledged since last winter that our real window begins in 2019.  That is a very wide window.   Anywhere from 5-7 years of championship contention.

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

7 hours ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

I don’t see any evidence dallas defense notices his departure, nor did i see any dallas fans care he left

Did you poll quite a few of them?

[SEMO 6,811]

The Bucs, who have the 31st ranked defense, just fired DC Mike Smith.  How many losses do we have to get for Reid to do the same with Sutton?

[FANATIC 852]

Look at last night. Packers defense sucks. WE proved the Patriots defense Sucks ......it goes on and on. Its an offense dominated game now.

[artsy 1,137]

11 hours ago, Lamardirts said:

When they attack down hill they look fine when we sit back and react we get washed out.   I do agree that a simpler scheme might be good until we can get some of our big guns back.

Excellent point. The LB's get washed out frequently because the O linemen are allowed to get to the second level and hit them. Sutton's scheme is not designed to allow the dlinemen to take up blocks, it is designed to have them shoot gaps. Therefore the d linemen are often in a man to man situation.

The problems in the run game come when those d linemen (Jones, Bailey and Nnadi) don't win those one on ones. If the run is to there side, and they allow themselves to be blocked one on one, the LB has no chance to make a play, because the offensive guard/Tackle or fullback has slid off to the LB.

The shitty run defense is not all Hitchens and Raglands fault, it's a little of everyone on the defense. It's also Suttons whacked out scheme. Instead of having his dline eat blocks, they shoot gaps....and typically miss. That scheme or style of play always allows olinemen to get to the second level.

DJ is not here anymore, but was excellent at coming from the backside to make tackles. Hitchens is not as fast to diagnose the play and is usually ate up by a blocker by the time he see's it.

I've noticed that when both Hitchens and Ragland are kept clean they can at least get to the ball carrier pretty quick...However they don't always finish the tackle.