liquidfriend 1,151 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I'm still not really sure why people are fantasizing about a 4-3 change. The Chiefs aim to run the score up so the D will still be in sub packages a lot and they're going to still have the same issues. Putting a 4th guy on the DL won't suddenly make LB's play better either. Dee Ford would be too undersized to hold up adequately as an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iluvhouse24 1,808 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, liquidfriend said: I'm still not really sure why people are fantasizing about a 4-3 change. The Chiefs aim to run the score up so the D will still be in sub packages a lot and they're going to still have the same issues. Putting a 4th guy on the DL won't suddenly make LB's play better either. Dee Ford would be too undersized to hold up adequately as an end. Agree with all this. That said a veteran DC is going to want to implement his own scheme if hired. Hypothetically lets say they did hire Spagnuolo. He isnt going to start running a 34 at this point in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidfriend 1,151 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Well yeah the DC will dictate what is ran, but the HC will hire the appropriate guy to run the scheme that he wants ran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefensiveMan 758 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Sutton will probably stay amidst all the chatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iluvhouse24 1,808 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, DefensiveMan said: Sutton will probably stay amidst all the chatter. I'll punt my terrier if this happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefensiveMan 758 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said: I'll punt my terrier if this happens. I would also. Andy is as stubborn as a mule as they come. He needs to relinquish his loyalty at times. It comes back to bite him. Sutton should have been gone after the Indi debacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sith13 1,746 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Iluvhouse24 said: Sith why are you so unwilling to accept the fact that Ford has turned the corner. He has become an impact player. Even his run defense has improved. Furthermore, if he is still as 1 dimensional as you say, how could a switch to a 43 help him in any way? As a DE in a 43 he would have even more responsibility against the run. Did he? He's still useless against the run and we have seen his dismal attempt at coverage quite a few times throughout the year. Even though I think he can improve against the run playing in the right scheme he's just not good enough to cover anyone as an OLB. That's why they still prefer to line him up at the blind side. Barely gets tackles behind the LOS or any passes defended (not even sure if he has any in his career). I think he's a great pass rusher but other than that he's just Zombo. The reason I would look to trade him is that his trade value is much higher than his contributions in our scheme. If we could keep him for 6-8 mil per year that would be a different story but if we are to stay in this scheme we need real OLBs to play the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iluvhouse24 1,808 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 22 minutes ago, sith13 said: Did he? He's still useless against the run and we have seen his dismal attempt at coverage quite a few times throughout the year. Even though I think he can improve against the run playing in the right scheme he's just not good enough to cover anyone as an OLB. That's why they still prefer to line him up at the blind side. Barely gets tackles behind the LOS or any passes defended (not even sure if he has any in his career). I think he's a great pass rusher but other than that he's just Zombo. The reason I would look to trade him is that his trade value is much higher than his contributions in our scheme. If we could keep him for 6-8 mil per year that would be a different story but if we are to stay in this scheme we need real OLBs to play the position. He has improved noticeably against the run this year. His run defense grade us higher than Houstons. I know you dont care for the guy as a player, and I wouldnt sign him ling term either. But you said he sucks in the 34. He hasnt sucked this year by any stretch. Hes been a very good player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sith13 1,746 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Iluvhouse24 said: He has improved noticeably against the run this year. His run defense grade us higher than Houstons. I know you dont care for the guy as a player, and I wouldnt sign him ling term either. But you said he sucks in the 34. He hasnt sucked this year by any stretch. Hes been a very good player. Houston isn't his old self either this year. That's the primary problem on our defense IMO. Two OLBs that can't stop anyone behind the LOS or cover well against TEs that have been torching us all year. IMO the right way to approach isn't via edge rushers but rather 4-3 OLBs that can rush the passer well (aka TJ Watt). It's great to have high sack numbers but we have been too embedded in those. Both our OLBs have more sacks than they have tackles for loss, which sort of explains our inefficiency around the LOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mloe68 1,521 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 7 hours ago, sith13 said: Houston isn't his old self either this year. That's the primary problem on our defense IMO. Two OLBs that can't stop anyone behind the LOS or cover well against TEs that have been torching us all year. IMO the right way to approach isn't via edge rushers but rather 4-3 OLBs that can rush the passer well (aka TJ Watt). It's great to have high sack numbers but we have been too embedded in those. Both our OLBs have more sacks than they have tackles for loss, which sort of explains our inefficiency around the LOS. Dee Ford is on pace for 52 tackles, 30 QB hits, 13 sacks, 10 TFL, 6 Forced fumbles. He grades out better than freaking Von Miller overall and he’s part of the problem. Huh? By the way your guy TJ Watt has exactly two more TFL than Ford. He’s also forced two fewer turnovers and hit the QB ten fewer times. Great film breakdown shows how much Ford has improved including vs the run. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.arrowheadpride.com/platform/amp/2018/10/31/18042642/film-review-why-dee-ford-has-suddenly-become-the-real-deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sith13 1,746 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 4 hours ago, Mloe68 said: Dee Ford is on pace for 52 tackles, 30 QB hits, 13 sacks, 10 TFL, 6 Forced fumbles. He grades out better than freaking Von Miller overall and he’s part of the problem. Huh? By the way your guy TJ Watt has exactly two more TFL than Ford. He’s also forced two fewer turnovers and hit the QB ten fewer times. Great film breakdown shows how much Ford has improved including vs the run. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.arrowheadpride.com/platform/amp/2018/10/31/18042642/film-review-why-dee-ford-has-suddenly-become-the-real-deal With those pass rushing numbers I'm pretty sure we can get 2 1sts for Ford, even a better move to trade him away. That being said even the article calls Ford nothing but a pass rusher. They say he's better against the run than before, which he is but he sure isn't good against it. As you mentioned Watt has OLB numbers (more tackles, more passes defended) while providing just a couple less sacks, and he's still improving. If we are to stay in this scheme that's the type of OLB we need to find. I don't like the selection of another edge rusher type player in Speaks in that regard but I'm guessing he'll end up at DE. Also watching Ford do anything but rush the passer is just terrible, pretty much every TE or WR that lined up against him has been torching us all year long. He's like the star-maker for receivers. He's one of the best pass rushers this season but not really that good of an OLB IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calichief 3,024 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 13 hours ago, DefensiveMan said: I would also. Andy is as stubborn as a mule as they come. He needs to relinquish his loyalty at times. It comes back to bite him. Sutton should have been gone after the Indi debacle. He needs to be the head coach first and foremost. He’s too busy being the OC..this has been my knock on him. he should have realized this back after the Indy loss, and made a change. instead it’s gonna cost him again most likely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iluvhouse24 1,808 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 4 hours ago, sith13 said: With those pass rushing numbers I'm pretty sure we can get 2 1sts for Ford, even a better move to trade him away. That being said even the article calls Ford nothing but a pass rusher. They say he's better against the run than before, which he is but he sure isn't good against it. As you mentioned Watt has OLB numbers (more tackles, more passes defended) while providing just a couple less sacks, and he's still improving. If we are to stay in this scheme that's the type of OLB we need to find. I don't like the selection of another edge rusher type player in Speaks in that regard but I'm guessing he'll end up at DE. Also watching Ford do anything but rush the passer is just terrible, pretty much every TE or WR that lined up against him has been torching us all year long. He's like the star-maker for receivers. He's one of the best pass rushers this season but not really that good of an OLB IMO. TJ Watt grades out as the 46th rated edge rusher in the league overall. His coverage grade is a 31.7. Thats not a typo. He is THE WORST edge defender in football when it comes to pass coverage and if it werent for Bradley Chubb it wouldnt be close. No offense but your opinion is wrong. TJ Watt is an absolutely pathetic pass defender and the season he is having doesnt come close to that of Dee Ford. Our OLBs may be asked to drop into coverage more than other teams are, but thats an indictment on Sutton, not Ford. Sutton has no idea how to tailor a defense to his players strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sith13 1,746 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 18 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said: TJ Watt grades out as the 46th rated edge rusher in the league overall. His coverage grade is a 31.7. Thats not a typo. He is THE WORST edge defender in football when it comes to pass coverage and if it werent for Bradley Chubb it wouldnt be close. No offense but your opinion is wrong. TJ Watt is an absolutely pathetic pass defender and the season he is having doesnt come close to that of Dee Ford. Our OLBs may be asked to drop into coverage more than other teams are, but thats an indictment on Sutton, not Ford. Sutton has no idea how to tailor a defense to his players strengths. Yet even that pathetic guy has more passes defended than Ford as well as more tackles and tackles for loss. Ford is ahead of Watt with 2 sacks and 2 forced fumbles but trails in every other category and when on the field it clearly shows. And Watt is doing those in the strong side (Ford also played there for quite a bit this year). Also Watt isn't the name but the type of player to target, OLB that can make the switch to 3-4. That's the thing our OLBs have to drop in to coverage. That's why we see Ford looking helplessly behind receivers he's asked to cover. Used to be the same with Houston when he first made the switch and this year it seems to be back to those days. Unless we are switching schemes we have to change our draft/FA mentality for certain positions. Our approach should be finding OLBs like Seattle did on their path to a dominant defense. Fast guys who can cover and wrap up when needed. Ford has been a great pass rusher this year, that's why his value is at its peak and if we are to stay in this scheme the right thing to do is trading him for as much as possible instead of paying him big bucks only to watch him get beat by RBs and receivers. 28 year-old oft injured guy who still has to improve to play the position isn't the player to keep around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mloe68 1,521 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 7 hours ago, sith13 said: Yet even that pathetic guy has more passes defended than Ford as well as more tackles and tackles for loss. Ford is ahead of Watt with 2 sacks and 2 forced fumbles but trails in every other category and when on the field it clearly shows. And Watt is doing those in the strong side (Ford also played there for quite a bit this year). Also Watt isn't the name but the type of player to target, OLB that can make the switch to 3-4. That's the thing our OLBs have to drop in to coverage. That's why we see Ford looking helplessly behind receivers he's asked to cover. Used to be the same with Houston when he first made the switch and this year it seems to be back to those days. Unless we are switching schemes we have to change our draft/FA mentality for certain positions. Our approach should be finding OLBs like Seattle did on their path to a dominant defense. Fast guys who can cover and wrap up when needed. Ford has been a great pass rusher this year, that's why his value is at its peak and if we are to stay in this scheme the right thing to do is trading him for as much as possible instead of paying him big bucks only to watch him get beat by RBs and receivers. 28 year-old oft injured guy who still has to improve to play the position isn't the player to keep around. We are completely on different spectrums of this thought process. To me a lethal pass rusher is that absolute hardest thing to find on the defensive side of the ball and invaluable to a defense in the modern NFL where corners just can't cover people like they used to. The ONLY way to combat that is with a pass rush. Do you really think somehow his ability to cover freakin WRs man on man should weigh heavily in his evaluation? Those guys mainly drop into zone by the way as they should because most linebackers can cover WRs one on one. The ludicrous nature of Justin Houston chasing Antonio Brown down the field in the 2016 playoff game is well documented. That's a matchup only a bad DC would ever let happen. If a QB sees a LB matched up the a WR, I guarantee if he's worth his salt, that's where the ball is going. On point what Dee Ford is this year is a Derrick Thomas like player. Great at chasing plays from the backside but very average when they run right at him. If you can guarantee me this type of production, I'm paying him big money! Problem for me is his back issues in the past. And because of that if someone were to offer two first round picks, I'd jump on it. But nobody is giving up that type of compensation for Ford, when that was the price for the best defensive player (or at least top 3) in football who had sustained his play over multiple years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANATIC 852 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 25 minutes ago, Mloe68 said: We are completely on different spectrums of this thought process. To me a lethal pass rusher is that absolute hardest thing to find on the defensive side of the ball and invaluable to a defense in the modern NFL where corners just can't cover people like they used to. The ONLY way to combat that is with a pass rush. Do you really think somehow his ability to cover freakin WRs man on man should weigh heavily in his evaluation? Those guys mainly drop into zone by the way as they should because most linebackers can cover WRs one on one. The ludicrous nature of Justin Houston chasing Antonio Brown down the field in the 2016 playoff game is well documented. That's a matchup only a bad DC would ever let happen. If a QB sees a LB matched up the a WR, I guarantee if he's worth his salt, that's where the ball is going. On point what Dee Ford is this year is a Derrick Thomas like player. Great at chasing plays from the backside but very average when they run right at him. If you can guarantee me this type of production, I'm paying him big money! Problem for me is his back issues in the past. And because of that if someone were to offer two first round picks, I'd jump on it. But nobody is giving up that type of compensation for Ford, when that was the price for the best defensive player (or at least top 3) in football who had sustained his play over multiple years. I agree. Paying guys who put it a one year effort for a big contract is scary. Franchise him then move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkuenn 3,613 Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 2 hours ago, FANATIC said: I agree. Paying guys who put it a one year effort for a big contract is scary. Franchise him then move on. Then see if we can do a Jared Allen type trade or have him play the year and prove it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sith13 1,746 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 On 12/21/2018 at 11:45 PM, Mloe68 said: We are completely on different spectrums of this thought process. To me a lethal pass rusher is that absolute hardest thing to find on the defensive side of the ball and invaluable to a defense in the modern NFL where corners just can't cover people like they used to. The ONLY way to combat that is with a pass rush. Do you really think somehow his ability to cover freakin WRs man on man should weigh heavily in his evaluation? Those guys mainly drop into zone by the way as they should because most linebackers can cover WRs one on one. The ludicrous nature of Justin Houston chasing Antonio Brown down the field in the 2016 playoff game is well documented. That's a matchup only a bad DC would ever let happen. If a QB sees a LB matched up the a WR, I guarantee if he's worth his salt, that's where the ball is going. On point what Dee Ford is this year is a Derrick Thomas like player. Great at chasing plays from the backside but very average when they run right at him. If you can guarantee me this type of production, I'm paying him big money! Problem for me is his back issues in the past. And because of that if someone were to offer two first round picks, I'd jump on it. But nobody is giving up that type of compensation for Ford, when that was the price for the best defensive player (or at least top 3) in football who had sustained his play over multiple years. My thoughts in general. However instead of paying big money for such production I would probably stick with what he's getting right now. Market seems to make up about 12% of the whole cap which is absurd IMO. Regardless of the production I would definitely stay away from big bucks to oft-injured guys. Some bounce back like Kelce but most of the time it doesn't work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azchief21 5,278 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 On 12/21/2018 at 1:53 AM, Calichief said: He needs to be the head coach first and foremost. He’s too busy being the OC..this has been my knock on him. he should have realized this back after the Indy loss, and made a change. instead it’s gonna cost him again most likely This^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iluvhouse24 1,808 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 2 hours ago, azchief21 said: This^^^^ Agreed. He was so bust installing new facets and wrinkles to the offense this offseason that featured Mahomes, I feel like the guy just left the defense alone. After what happened in the playoff fame against Tennessee, Sutton fate should have been sealed. They have progressively gotten worse every year since 2015. This year theyve taken another step back. That cant happen with a team that expects to compete for titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mloe68 1,521 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 On 12/21/2018 at 2:53 AM, Calichief said: He needs to be the head coach first and foremost. He’s too busy being the OC..this has been my knock on him. he should have realized this back after the Indy loss, and made a change. instead it’s gonna cost him again most likely He’s averaging 11 wins per season and is on cusp of third straight division title. He’s WAY more than focused solely on offense. He hires coaches and trusts them to do their job and gets a lot of good ones because he gives them freedom to grow. He’s also overly loyal as a downside. But it’s not because he’s got a team ignoring defense as Vermiel did. To coax a team with a bad work in progress defense and a 23 year old QB within one win of the number 1 seed is a borderline miraculous overall job by Andy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calichief 3,024 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Mloe68 said: He’s averaging 11 wins per season and is on cusp of third straight division title. He’s WAY more than focused solely on offense. He hires coaches and trusts them to do their job and gets a lot of good ones because he gives them freedom to grow. He’s also overly loyal as a downside. But it’s not because he’s got a team ignoring defense as Vermiel did. To coax a team with a bad work in progress defense and a 23 year old QB within one win of the number 1 seed is a borderline miraculous overall job by Andy! All that’s true, but not dealing with bob is a knock on him. Period. It has cost this team wins. hes the head coach, step in when you see the defense falling apart routinely at the end of games. Yes, every couch coach can see the prevent coming, so should Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azchief21 5,278 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 As soon as the offense leaves the field Andy runs over to sit next to Mahomes. It seems he rarely watches the defense getting thrashed live. He needs to get right next to Sutton, get in his ear and hammer these guys as they come off the field after giving up another TD. Trust Bienemy to discuss the offense with Mahomes. Andy needs to be a head coach not a glorified OC. Responsibility for this shitty defense falls directly on Andy for lack of defensive participation and for keeping Sutton around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sith13 1,746 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 7 hours ago, Mloe68 said: He’s averaging 11 wins per season and is on cusp of third straight division title. He’s WAY more than focused solely on offense. He hires coaches and trusts them to do their job and gets a lot of good ones because he gives them freedom to grow. He’s also overly loyal as a downside. But it’s not because he’s got a team ignoring defense as Vermiel did. To coax a team with a bad work in progress defense and a 23 year old QB within one win of the number 1 seed is a borderline miraculous overall job by Andy! That has always been the talk about Reid. He's an offensive genius that turns QBs to gold. Most of the time that's enough to get a playoff spot as we have seen over the years by various teams and coaches. In such a scenario Reid isn't really a complete HC as we are used to so he needs to delegate better on the defensive side, which means finding a guy that's more than a regular DC but someone who can run the whole defense without much help from the HC. Looking as his career and loyalty if I were the owner I wouldn't allow Reid to pick the DC or appoint coaches under him. He could and should comment on the candidates but that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANATIC 852 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 Free Agents may not want to play for Sutton the career killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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