How our current personnel fit in Spags' 4-3

[xen 1,010,220]

1 hour ago, wilkie said:

Most qbs today can get rid of the ball in 3 seconds.   This pretty much takes the pass rush option out of a front 7.  I have read all of these scenarios.   Are we assuming Bailey will not be in the mix.  And if we franchise Ford,  is he big enough to play DE?

Are you saying QBs don't get sacked or that qb pressures and hits don't wreck gameplans?  Not sure you have a point here.  

Bailey will not be in the mix.  He's a FA.

Ford is big enough for a Leo. 

[CranjisMcbasketball 781]

1 hour ago, wilkie said:

Most qbs today can get rid of the ball in 3 seconds.   This pretty much takes the pass rush option out of a front 7.  I have read all of these scenarios.   Are we assuming Bailey will not be in the mix.  And if we franchise Ford,  is he big enough to play DE?

I think there is little to no chance bailey is brought back, if he is it will be for a low contract that would be cutable at any moment.

qbs do get the ball out quick but as the patriots proved pressure up the middle effects every quarterback in history.

[xen 1,010,220]

1 minute ago, CranjisMcbasketball said:

I think there is little to no chance bailey is brought back, if he is it will be for a low contract that would be cutable at any moment.

qbs do get the ball out quick but as the patriots proved pressure up the middle effects every quarterback in history.

We should get a jump on that cuttable Bailey contract and just cut him now.

[reesebobby 5,663]

3 hours ago, Mloe68 said:

Derrick Thomas thrived there and they have similiar size and styles. Dee is kind of DT Light

Derrick Thomas was 10 times the run stopper dee Ford is. 

[moons314 2,463]

3 hours ago, reesebobby said:

Derrick Thomas was 10 times the run stopper dee Ford is. 

This.  I know DT’s run defense slipped toward the end, but even in his declining years it was 10x what ford will ever be.  While they might be similar in size, Ford is nowhere near the capable player that DT was. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

4 hours ago, reesebobby said:

Derrick Thomas was 10 times the run stopper dee Ford is. 

I don’t agree with this at all.  DT was pretty good at backside support but almost a liability when they ran right at him. He flat got benched in our last AFC Championship game because of it.  Again to me they have very similiar size and styles.  DT was just better at what they both do well and the best linebacker of his generation at creating big plays. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

45 minutes ago, moons314 said:

This.  I know DT’s run defense slipped toward the end, but even in his declining years it was 10x what ford will ever be.  While they might be similar in size, Ford is nowhere near the capable player that DT was. 

DT could be a flat liability at times vs the run.  He also wasn’t very good in his coverage responsibilities in the 3-4.  In short he was pretty one dimensional which is why the the best big play linebacker of his generation took 5 tries to get into the Hall of Fame.

Dee Ford is a similiar type of player that can handle either scheme and in fact played this role in a 4-3 at Auburn. Again to me kind of DT light with more injury issues and not as explosive.   

[sith13 1,746]

DT had shortcomings against the run but was still way better than Ford. In coverage DT was questionable but Ford reminds me a headless chicken more than a NFL player when chasing receivers. Pass rush is already incomparable. Basically DT was much better in all aspects of OLB than Ford IMO, closer to Houston's prime. Unless we find a DJ to play behind Ford he'll definitely be lost at DE. However I think he'll be much better as a pass rusher due to his first step which was only occasionally a factor in 3-4. 

[reesebobby 5,663]

5 hours ago, Mloe68 said:

DT could be a flat liability at times vs the run.  He also wasn’t very good in his coverage responsibilities in the 3-4.  In short he was pretty one dimensional which is why the the best big play linebacker of his generation took 5 tries to get into the Hall of Fame.

Dee Ford is a similiar type of player that can handle either scheme and in fact played this role in a 4-3 at Auburn. Again to me kind of DT light with more injury issues and not as explosive.   

He took 5 tries because he died when he wasn’t much older than Houston and didn’t accumulate the career numbers expected. Look at his tackle numbers per year and compare them to Ford.  He was much closer to suited to DE than ford. 

[xen 1,010,220]

They played different positions in different defenses in different eras so not really comparable. 

But lol at the attempted retcon of DT being a great run defender.

He's in the HOF for a reason but it damn sure ain't his run defense.  

[reesebobby 5,663]

I never said he was a great run defender.  And neither did anyone else.  Only that he was far better than ford.  And that’s true.  Ford averages about two tackles per game for his career.  That’s hard to believe. 

[reesebobby 5,663]

To put it in perspective, Ford has 136 career tackles. After year two Thomas had 138.  And as mentioned he was not known as a run defender. 

[Palangi 788]

2 hours ago, reesebobby said:

To put it in perspective, Ford has 136 career tackles. After year two Thomas had 138.  And as mentioned he was not known as a run defender. 

Teams also ran the ball more in DT era.  

Your number are so skewed and flawed.  You can't prove anything this way. 

[reesebobby 5,663]

21 minutes ago, Palangi said:

Teams also ran the ball more in DT era.  

Your number are so skewed and flawed.  You can't prove anything this way. 

Over the past two seasons opponents have rushed 868 times.  DTs first two season they rushed 818.  I’ve watched them both for years.  The stats bear out what the eyes tell you.  Ford is awful against the run.  

[reesebobby 5,663]

In 1989 Thomas was the second leading tackler on the number 2 defense in the nfl. He was light years ahead of ford against the run. 

[Palangi 788]

54 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

Over the past two seasons opponents have rushed 868 times.  DTs first two season they rushed 818.  I’ve watched them both for years.  The stats bear out what the eyes tell you.  Ford is awful against the run.  

I'm not arguing.  DT is the reason I am a chiefs fan.  Favorite player all time.  And Dee Ford can't hold his jock strap.  But the game is different and raw numbers don't tell a full story.  

RPO wasn't apart of the game when DT played. Offenses are reading the end. Especially guys like Ford who are lighting quick with their get off. They lose out on tackles as they are the read option.  

[reesebobby 5,663]

19 minutes ago, Palangi said:

I'm not arguing.  DT is the reason I am a chiefs fan.  Favorite player all time.  And Dee Ford can't hold his jock strap.  But the game is different and raw numbers don't tell a full story.  

RPO wasn't apart of the game when DT played. Offenses are reading the end. Especially guys like Ford who are lighting quick with their get off. They lose out on tackles as they are the read option.  

Then compare him to von Miller.  Or j j watt.  He is unbelievably bad against the run. And there’s no way he’s a 4-3 defensive end. 

[reesebobby 5,663]

He played almost 5 quarters against Tom Brady who is zero rpo threat. The patriots ran 38 times and ford didn’t even have an assist.  

[Mloe68 1,521]

1 hour ago, reesebobby said:

In 1989 Thomas was the second leading tackler on the number 2 defense in the nfl. He was light years ahead of ford against the run. 

Leading a team in tackles doesn’t mean much as Anthony Htichens 135 tackles clearly prove. I saw nearly every snap DT ever played at Arrowhead and he looked pretty average vs run to me. But that just wasn’t his main role. What’s more if you read any analysis of his career, most would agree he was average in that regard.  

Also football has changed a lot since then and perhaps he’d be better as a pursuit player today.  He’s one of my favorite players ever. The Barry Sanders of defensive players. But we will have to agree to disagree on his prowess vs the run. 

[reesebobby 5,663]

I never said he was great.  Average is way better than ford.  I’m answering the question of the post.  Where does dee Ford fit in a base 4-3.  And the answer is he doesn’t.  He’s a pure 3-4 edge rusher. You can’t put him at DE and if you put him at OLB you take away his only strength.  DT was at least average against the run as you said.  And he was completely disruptive in the passing game.  You could find a place for him on any defense.  And they actually created the falcon position for him.  He was no Reggie white.  But he was way above dee Ford. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

5 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

I never said he was great.  Average is way better than ford.  I’m answering the question of the post.  Where does dee Ford fit in a base 4-3.  And the answer is he doesn’t.  He’s a pure 3-4 edge rusher. You can’t put him at DE and if you put him at OLB you take away his only strength.  DT was at least average against the run as you said.  And he was completely disruptive in the passing game.  You could find a place for him on any defense.  And they actually created the falcon position for him.  He was no Reggie white.  But he was way above dee Ford. 

On point I think Dee Ford would be just fine with his hand in the dirt like he played at Auburn. That said I’m not giving a guy with back issues a long term deal minus a lot of evidence he’s past it. As such I’d tag him and try to get that or tag and trade him if we want to move on. We just can’t let the NFL leader in QB pressures and forced fumbles get away for essentially a 4th round pick. 

[Mloe68 1,521]

40 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

He played almost 5 quarters against Tom Brady who is zero rpo threat. The patriots ran 38 times and ford didn’t even have an assist.  

Again DT was essentially benched in his AFC Title game as the Bills ran right at him and rushed for almost 250 yards. And this is probably a big reason it took him so long to get into the Hall.  I think we’d both agree a one game sample size for this type of talent wasn’t enough.  

[Palangi 788]

48 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

He played almost 5 quarters against Tom Brady who is zero rpo threat. The patriots ran 38 times and ford didn’t even have an assist.  

You definitely don't understand the rpo. It doesn't mean the qb is always a run threat

[Iluvhouse24 1,808]

25 minutes ago, reesebobby said:

I never said he was great.  Average is way better than ford.  I’m answering the question of the post.  Where does dee Ford fit in a base 4-3.  And the answer is he doesn’t.  He’s a pure 3-4 edge rusher. You can’t put him at DE and if you put him at OLB you take away his only strength.  DT was at least average against the run as you said.  And he was completely disruptive in the passing game.  You could find a place for him on any defense.  And they actually created the falcon position for him.  He was no Reggie white.  But he was way above dee Ford. 

He may not fit well in a 43 at DE in your opinion, but that sure doesnt mean he isnt gonna play there. They absolutely CAN play him at DE and are very likely going to do just that. 

[reesebobby 5,663]

9 minutes ago, Iluvhouse24 said:

He may not fit well in a 43 at DE in your opinion, but that sure doesnt mean he isnt gonna play there. They absolutely CAN play him at DE and are very likely going to do just that. 

If he’s on the team that’s the only place you could put him in a 4-3.  Would you pay him elite 3-4 edge rusher money to play DE in a 4-3?  I’m not down on ford or saying Thomas was a great run stopper.  But between the two there’s no question in my mind. who was better at it. And you can come up with lots of reasons why.  But what it seems to boil down to is that Ford just isn’t good at open field tackling and isn’t that interested in it.